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Rebuilding 2.2T to a 2.2 race motor...Thoughts?

Hello All,

Need to rebuild my engine. It is a 2.2T with a magnesium(3R) case. I have a very credible local mechanic and he is suggesting that I rebuild my engine into a vintage 2.2 Race motor. I am awaiting the exact spec on the motor but basically, I have been told that it will be a short stroke, 10.1 compression motor with approximately 140lbs of torque and 230HP. It will run off of pump gas.

It will be a street/track car. I want to keep the narrow body so moving up into larger displacement will change the category that I want to race in and I would have to modify the flares & wheels on my car.

I have not read much about people doing this to their cars so I am wondering if this is something that people are doing or have done...?

Thoughts & feedback are welcome as this upgrade will not be cheap but it sounds as though it would be a fun car to drive once it is potentially done.

Here is a picture of my project...(I have a 2nd set of Fuchs for the track)

Thanks,

Brent
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70' - 911
Old 05-24-2005, 02:19 PM
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Brent,

If you plan to race, obtain a copy of the rule book, and read it vigorously. For example, I race in PCA Club Racing, and a modification like the one you are describing to the engine would land you in the GT-5 class instead of a stock class- where you would then have to make every other permissible modification in order to remain competitive-- a $20K engine build becomes an $80K car development project. So read the rule book for your sanctioning body before you start.

That said, the 911T makes a pretty bad starting point for a high-performance engine, because virtually everything has to be changed. The 3R case will require a lot of work, and still won't be as good as a 7R or 2.0 aluminum case when you're finished. The T crank isn't counterweighted and isn't suitable for the high RPMs it takes to make 100bhp per liter in a Porsche. The valve and port sizes of T heads are too small to make serious power and will require extensive port work. The cast-iron cylinders are unsuitable for the tremendous heat generated by an all-out racing engine. Not to say it can't be done, but if you want 220HP for a street car I'd say get yourself a used 3.2 and put that in, rather than building a 2.2 with a 50-hour life expectancy. Case, heads, crank, pistons, rods, induction system, oil cooling and ignition will all need to be extensively worked over.

Do a search here and you will discover many threads about this. . . search under "2.0 Screamer" and there are a few threads.

Good luck! Welcome to the board.
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Old 05-24-2005, 03:07 PM
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Thanks John...This is exactly the type of input I was looking for....Much appreciated!

I have looked into the rules already and it looks as though I would fit into either the GT-5S & 5R categories as you mentioned.

Here is where I realise and admit that I don't know what I would be up against to be competitive...what other cars would fall into this category and you mentioned that this proposed engine would turn into an 80K project...How so? BTW - You are right, I am replacing almost everything...therefore, what else could be done?

Nothing has been decided on so I appreciate the feedback as I want to know what I am truly in for...

Thanks! - Brent

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Old 05-24-2005, 07:53 PM
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Brent,

Good, you have studied the rule book. Another good idea would be to attend whatever club race is local to you, don't know where in Canada you are located, but Mosport would be great to attend and you could see the state of the art in GT-5.

First of all, a lot of success in GT-5 has been had with 914's, with the targa bar cut off to reduce frontal area-- don't rule this out as a potentially cheaper alternative if you just want to go fast.

Now, if you want to go fast in 911 style (which I highly recommend) here's what you do.

Take that pristine '70 911 and set it aside as a nice driver.

Find yourself a car in GT-5 that someone else has already sunk tens of thousands of dollars into. PCA's Club Racing News has some good classifieds of front-runner cars whose owners are "moving up? to faster. This is by far the most cost- and time-effective way to do it.

If you are intent on building, these are the steps that guys follow. First, locate a suitable tub. You aren't going to keep much, so most any rust-free tub would work fine. Now, depending on whether you also want to race vintage, look at the rule books of other sanctioning bodies- some don't allow coil springs-- let's assume you are staying with torsion bar suspension. So out comes the sawzall, and off come the quarter panels, doors, hood, front fenders, the roof and the back seat. In goes a full NASCAR-style roll cage tied into shock towers front and rear, and an aluminum firewall for access to the engine. On go fiberglass hood, fenders, quarters, doors and roof. Once the body work is complete, then comes the suspension, which is open to geometry modification as you see fit. Weld-in front camber boxes to allow extreme alignments are possible, as well as weld-in extensions to the rear trailing arm mounts on the torsion tube, and 930 arms. Extensive oil cooling modifications will be made, including a large front cooler, front-mounted oil tank (for better weight distribution) and large lines running to the engine.

The engine itself probably costs as much as the car. I've seen a Peter Dawe built 2.2 that allegedly made 270 HP, with Motec ($5k) and slide valves (another $5k), aluminum case that's been boat-tailed and shuffle-pinned, case squirters, extensively ported heads with huge lightweight valves and ports, 906 or GE-100 cams, titanium rods by Pauter machine, high-compression pistons (like 13:1, you will be using $5/gallon race gas forever), headers and megaphone exhaust. Cost for an engine like that is probably north of $30,000, and life expectancy in the range of 20-30 hours before a maintenance rebuild. The stock rod bearings simply cannot handle that kind of pressure for long-- others have actually had custom crankshafts made, I don't even know much those cost, it's big bucks.

Well, anyway, that's some sense of the state of the art.

Eye Candy
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Old 05-25-2005, 06:47 AM
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i know that you're looking to build a motor for a specific class but have you thought about rebuilding it to 2.2S specs? i know that this is a "cult classic" because of the shorter stroke. plus you could have an engine with a lifespan measured in miles vs hours. the 70 cases don't have the piston squiters as opposed to the '71 2.2 case.
thought i would mention it since i was in sortof the same scenario when it came time to install/rebuild my engine though it would just be for street use.
please keep us posted. hopefully plavan will chime in as well.
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Old 05-25-2005, 10:05 AM
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Hey John,

Great info...When making decisions on the direction of a car it is good to see the whole picture. You have helped me see that the cost of speed is endless.

My original goal when I set out with all of this was to make a car that was fun to drive on the street (Early car fast & nimble) as well as something that would allow me to get my feet wet with racing. Once I get into it, I know there will be no turning back. The fact of the matter is that I know that I know nothing at this point. I will get in to see what I like and then decide to make/buy a race car from that point forward.

Bob: Thanks for your input...Oddly enough, I have both you and the Plavan family to blame for my Porsche expenses these days..(I need to blame someone) Your car was the car that put me over the top when stepping into the Porsche world. I was going to buy something much newer but after seeing your creation and other great cars on this board, I decided that somehting like your car is what I must build. The Plaven cars are where I am going...(I have their site bookmarked)

My case is a 71 (I made an error in my earlier post) So I do have the Piston squirters. I am going to investigate making an S engine...

I will keep you posted.

Thanks - Brent

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Old 05-25-2005, 12:38 PM
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Brent,

Good to hear additional details on your situation.

Can I make a suggestion if you are new to racing? Spend the money on the BEST 911T rebuild you can afford and additional oil cooling mods. You might be able to do a little better than 125HP without any engine mods that would knock you out of stock class.

For the beginning racer (and I count myself in that category having only done four seasons of wheel-to-wheel) the order of priorities should be (after seat time, which is the greatest bang for your racing buck):

1) Safety Equipment
2) Suspension
3) Brakes
4) Engine
5) Aerodynamics

I got severely beaten by a fellow at Lime Rock with a '69 911T, with a 110 HP engine, running two classes below me in "J." His suspension setup is state-of-the-art for a torsion bar car, and he's a great driver, but it goes to prove that you don't need power to perform very well.

Another point, one someone was nice enough to pass along to me soon after I got the Porsche bug: learn to drive in a low-power car. You learn energy management, how to NOT use the brakes, how to properly corner. Once you have that mastered you can step into a 935 and blow the doors off everyone. Plus, lower power cars are cheaper, and easier on brakes and tires than high-power, heavy cars.

I'd build the 2,2 "T" motor to be as strong as possible. It appears as though you've already done a fiberglass "s" spoiler and are doing something to the rear bumper. Good! That eliminates weight where it will do the most good.

The trouble with an "S" running in G-stock is that you are competing against SC's with 180 nominal horsepower (most probably make 200) with 245/275 Hoosiers, with an admittedly lighter car with 180 HP (probably close to max for a stock 2.2 "S") but with only 225-series tires. Even in I-class, the 944's have steamroller rubber and predictable handling at their much higher weight.

Another thing to consider is that you could always start out racing, and then make all the "prepared" mods to your car-- slot the suspension to change the geometry, flare the fenders, etc. and bump up a class, but you'd have a faster car, that could still be street-driven.

Good luck!
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Old 05-25-2005, 02:38 PM
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Old 05-25-2005, 03:12 PM
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Hey John,
Once again, thanks for the wisdom...I will do my best to follow it. The T engine is toast...A rebuild is in order so I will have a hard time not upgrading the engine as the 125HP engine does not excite me. That said - I have made no decisions.

Safety equipment, suspension and breaks are also being taken into consideration in my plan.

I am located in Ottawa - I have 2 tracks that are relatively close by (Tremblant & Mosport) with a 3rd track opening soon which is 20 minutes from my house. (Calabogie) So I expect gaining seat time will be easily obtained.

DTW: I Don't get it?

Thanks - Brent.

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Old 05-25-2005, 04:23 PM
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brent - i am glad i could be of "dis"-service. the plavans car are a great goal to strive for - really nice cars.
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
...as the 125HP engine does not excite me.
I would argue (being a contrary sort BTW ) that you then don't know how to drive a car with 125HP. I used to race a FWD sedan with a 1.6 putting out maybe 100 HP, and was going fast enough to turn the average person's hair white if they had been sitting next to me. The secret to driving fast on a race track is all in the braking zones (trying to spend as little time on the brakes as possible) and the corners (trying to roll as much speed around them as possible). Accelerating out of the corners and down the straight is a piece of cake that any grand mother could do successfully. If you're doing a good job driving, you'll have more then enough exciting moments with 125 HP pushing you down the straights.

Just my $0.02.
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Old 05-26-2005, 09:57 AM
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Hey John,

Your $0.02 are welcomed and yes, I agree with you - Having no experience, I really don't know what I would be in for on the track. My apprehention regarding having a 125Hp car is based on my non applicable knowledge of my street cars that have substantially more power. The more I investigate this, the more, I am leaning towards both yours and John Cramers suggestions; Build a rock solid, well sorted 2.2T and I will have a blast.

Thanks.
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Old 05-26-2005, 10:17 AM
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You will be absolutely amazed how good a stock Porsche can be once you learn to race. Get good track only tires, R compound if allowed, thats where most of the handling improvement will come from and its least expensive. The safty equipment and mods to make suitable to race will cost you about $8k mininum. Put a good shift gate on the shifter and keep it out of the redline and you will have a good street and track car that will last.
Old 05-26-2005, 04:34 PM
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FWIW I drove a near-stock 914/4 2.0 in track events for a few years, and it was a blast. 90-100hp on a good day! With very modest suspension mods, and DOT-R rubber, I was able to play pretty well with far more powerful cars in the turns. On the straights they would eat my lunch, of course, but then I would get up on them in braking and turn-in.

Now I have a 914/6 conversion track car with an engine that a PO built as discussed here. It started as a 2.0T-spec, rated at 110hp IIRC, and it was built with 2.2S barrels, pistons, cams, plus headers etc. The heads and bottom end are a bit of a mystery as I've not opened it up yet, but it should be putting out between 160-180hp I would guess, and is definitely more fun and "revvable" than a T build.

Would I go to the trouble with my own cash -- Nope -- I would at least use an early alum. 2L case, more aggressive cams, higher C/R, etc. and either 2L or 2.5L displacement depending on what group I wanted to drive with primarily. The 2.2 and 2.4 displacements put you kind of "in between" in many organizations rules, once you depart the stock classes.
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Old 05-27-2005, 07:30 PM
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If you really want to have fun "cheep" (there really ain't no such thing in racing) go with a 912. You can get 160 to 180hp at 150 or more less pounds in the rear. THis translates to kick butt performance that can beat most 911 S cars if you can drive it. Joe Vampola has proven this for a fact on several races.
Old 05-28-2005, 08:34 PM
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Interesting suggestion, the Type IV has really evolved. Unfortunately, he'd be running in GT-6 with all the attendant issues of GT-5, e.g., 911R clone time.

Still, if 180HP were possible from an 150 pound engine, it might be worth it both economically and from a total weight/weight distribution standpoint.

Time to surf on over to Jake Raby's site. . .
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Old 06-01-2005, 07:13 AM
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I am talking about the 356 version of the 912, not the type IV 912. Keeps you out of the faster class. Problem is cost is still way up there if you do a reliable engine. But still under a 911.
Old 06-01-2005, 12:19 PM
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