Top end needs rebuild, what are the costs?

[moazam]

So my brothers 1987 911 Coupe needs a top end rebuild. Both of us have pretty much zilch experience with doing major or even medium work on cars.

What would it cost for us to try to rebuild the top-end on our own? And...is it even realistic for a newbie to try to do something like this?

[Jeff Alton]

very realistic. Buy Wayne's engine book and follow the steps. Use this board when you have a question.. Everyone who rebuilds here at one time did their first one. Go throught the wizard on this site to get an ideal of what it might cost. It varies a lot if you need valves or your PC set can not be reused. But there is big dollars to be saved in labour by doing it yourself.

Jeff

[Mike Juzenas]

Hi Jeff,

I could not find this wizard on the site...can you give some directions?

I am also in Vancouver. Who would you recommend around here who can handle doing the heads for my 993? I can send it down to the US but would prefer a local shop if they have lots of experience and know what to do with 993 heads.

Cheers,

Mike

[TurboBert]

Follow this link:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/wizards/parts_wizard.cgi?wizard_root=911_engine_rebuild

[rotorhead]

In Feb I was in exactly the same position as you. I needed to pull down and re-assemble the top end of my 1988 3.3 turbo. I had never held a piston ring in my hand before. It all went well and the car runs great now with 300mi on the clock.

The cost is difficult to estimate because the milage and the reason for the rebuild can drastically affect it. I would say the lowest is around $1500 and up to $8000 if there are issues with pistons and cylinders

11 important things that I learned:

1. Waynes book saves you money by giving you a step by step guide BUY it READ it TWICE and make notes in the margins before you begin.

2. If you are not rebuilding the CIS along with the engine then most top end gasket kits are both an overkill and deficient. I think I could give you a list of the ones you need if you like. Also top end rebuild kits don't include the rsr rocker seals, the oil thermostat seal or cam tensioner oil seals.

3. Get the cam sprocket tool, a dial guage/Z block and an accurate torque wrench. You are saving money on the rebuild so get the right tools.

4. A Blow torch (Map/Propane or Oxy), air compressor/impact wrench and angle grinder are invaluable for getting the exhaust system removed.

5. The P201 engine yoke is an excellent and expensive item that you can probably do without. I hung a fully dressed turbo engine on a universal mount for several weeks (You need to fabricate aluminium spacers to save the transmission lip.

6. Find a machine shop and talk to the machinist about the work you want done. It really helps in narrowing down the one to use.

7. Replace those Dilivar studs with steel, easy to do with the top end apart.

8. Expect to be replace the rubber centered clutch (If still fitted).

9. A Digital camera is great to document the process to assist the re-assemble. Freezer bag and label everything as your memory will fail you.

10. If you are considering separating the piston/cylinders then read these forums on the best way to prepare the cylinders to accept newly ringed pistons an important decision will have to be made..

11. If you ask a question on this forum expect either the most expensive or the cheapest advice. You must decide whether to take the expensive high road or the dangerous low road. Your job is to consider both paths and arrive at the reliable middle ground.



finally, I welcome corrections to the above from others

[Jeff Alton]

Mike, the best place for heads up here is Lance Hayward. Send me an email and I will give you his number, don't feel comfortable posting it without his permission. All of the shops here send their heads to him. I used Steve at Rennsport Systems for the ones on my 964 3.6 and am very pleased. You can also try High Performance Engines is Burnaby, just had a set of 3.2 ones done there.

Cheers, Jeff

[Jeff Alton]

If you click on the 911 catalog, I think there is a link right there...
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911M/POR_911M_enginA_pg1.htm


Jeff

[BReyes]

40 to 60 hours labor plus parts. You can do it, with the right tools and help. There are many good machine shops you may use. There are also shops that will do it for you (but you can probably do just as good a job [better than many] if you have the skills and can handle the "down time" to the car.)

I spent over $7k on my tope end rebuild. And it is worth it Good Luck.

Regards,

[hcoles]

I'm on my way to finishing the top end rebuild on my 89 3.2. I didn't split the case but had the p's and c's reconditioned and new rings. New clutch and all that goes with that...was able to reuse flywheel. I've been avoiding adding it up because I don't want to know. $6k or so is a good estimate. There are a lot of things to do and not do. Re. torque wrench...good advice and check the range a lot of the fasteners fall in a torque range on the end ranges of some common torque wrenches..that's an example of 100+ tips I could probably think of. A hard part for me was to stay organized and label things along with pictures...I'll stop there...

[cjr1]

In middle of 3.2 rebuild.Doing it myself,first time.Invest in Wayne's book & read it as previously said.Lots of info & tips there.On costs,w/ all new hardware in heads(guides,springs,ti retainers,valves & street valve job),I'll have about $1500 in just the heads.Not counting gasket set or anything else.So dependent on what needs to be replaced or can be reused,you just don't know until it is in pieces & things are measured & checked.EBS is doing my heads & cam regrind.Don has helped guide me thru the process.Very helpful & honest,always willing to talk & answer all my ????.I've had lots & he has not ever seemed to.....how do I say this.....have the tone of wanting to be elsewhere,not answering my ????.

Do the research,talk to people,post here....You CAN DO IT !!!!!

Chris

[wilke3169]

As many have said here it is easily doable. I had some experience but none with a 911. Everyone that walked in my garage asked where I learned and I pointed to the books. Wayne's rebuild book, 101 projects, and the Bentley manual. All priceless in their own way. This board is PRICELESS...
Costs are up to needs or wants. Mine escalated because I had to replace P&C. Also so many, "while you are in there costs." To me disassembly of old rusted fasteners and studs was the most nerve racking. Cleaning was the most time consuming and arduous task. I now have 1300 miles since the rebuild. Wife asked a few weeks ago if I would attempt it again. I told her if I had a spare engine i would be rebuilding it right now. It was a great adventure. Final cost? I'm afraid to add it all up.

[88911coupe]

What is the general concensus on valves? If they are within spec with regard to diameter are they reusable when doing a top end rebuild?
TIA

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by 88911coupe
What is the general concensus on valves? If they are within spec with regard to diameter are they reusable when doing a top end rebuild?
TIA

Your machine shop can/will determine this for you. Very often the valves are fine and can be reused.

Ralph

[cjr1]

The 2 main measurements on valves are:stem diameter(gets too thin=junk & margin,which is the edge @ circumference of valve head,as valve is reground,this edge gets thinner,again too thin =junk.
All of my stems were under spec,so they weren't reuseable.
The valve heads had room ,but stems made that moot.

Chris

Carrera3.5 is correct though,you machine shop will/should advise unless you have tools to measure yourself.

[88911coupe]

That's helpful information. I had somehow gotten the idea that if your valve guides are worn then the valve stems get over heated and possibly become brittle or weaker somehow. I must have misunderstood the potential problem of valves breaking off in cases where the guides had worn out.
Thanks

[axl911]

Let's see:

400 - rebuilt kits for top & bottom
(which includes both front and rear mains

[axl911]

Let's see:

400 - rebuilt kits for top & bottom
(which includes both front and rear main seals)
200 - engine stand and adapter
100 - cam tool
100 - another torque wrench (you need 3)
700 - head rebuid
150 - powercoating engine tin
80 - atv jack
100 - z-block and dial gauge
150 - misc tools (pullers, ring compressor, tensioning tool, etc.)
200 - cleaning chemicals, carb cleaner, etc.
100 - oil & filter
200 - early 964 head gasket, viton thru bolt o-rings, etc.
-----
2, 380 for a DIY 964 top-end

[cjr1]

88911,
I'm sure as the guides wear,there is more sideways movement of the valve,which could break a valve head off if it got out of place that far,but I would think you would be seeing other issues by them.I'm newly into P-cars & am learning more everyday,by no means an "expert".I have been messing w/ engines for 20+yrs.
2 strokes,boat engines(small hydros 1800cc-2400cc),sbc,lots of different stuff,again not an expert but seen alot.

Chris