And the pieces came a tumblen' down...

[euro911sc]

Car: 82 Euro SC w/ 90k miles (Who knows how many kms)

So I knew I had a problem when #3 gave me a 0% leak down... (that would be 100% leakage to be precise)

I removed the valve covers and found all studs intact except for 1 on #4. This didn't compute so I went further...

I was down to removing the cam bolts at 12am and thought I might leave that till tomorrow and just do some easy stuff like removing the sump plate...

clink... clink clink... clinkity clankity clink... oh crap...



... and then I pulled the screen off... (see bits around edge of screen)


... and looked inside a little...


*sigh*



Looks like rings and ring landings... (these were the big parts)




Oh well... goodby old budget, hello new budget!

So I'm guessing I'll need at least a new P&C and a head... if it is contained only to #3...

(guess I better change my signature to: at dead stop)

[Wayne 962]

You're going to have to clean everything out - I suggest replacing the oil cooler too.

That does look pretty bad, it's difficult for those parts to escape the ring lands without destroying the cylinder and piston...

-Wayne

[euro911sc]

I suspect that some RTV (see: Holy RTV Batman!! ) got into the oiling system and a lack of oil to # 3 caused a catastrophic ring failure that took the landings with it... thats my guess anyway... clean and test everything is the name of the game for sure

Well, we'll all find out today! Its another snow day here in FL thanks to Wilma (no work cause we got no power) I'm going to try and take off the cam carriers and heads and then the true devastation will be revealed!

I'll post pics. WARNING: probably not for the faint at heart!

BAH!

-Michael

[john walker's workshop]

RTV caused a piston to break up?

[euro911sc]

I was postulating that the RTV may have clogged portions of the oiling system...?? eventually causing the rings to disintegrate and the piston ring landings to experience the same...

Its just my current guess. We'll really never know. Its not like I missed a shift and can point to some event and say that was it. The car was great... then only ok then not so great and then it leaked a lot so I began the journey

I would really like a root cause to make an appearance.

-m

[goose2]

This is very interesting to me because I have a 3.0 with exactly the same debris inside. It is a used motor I bought recently and I'm about to tear it down. FWIW...a Porsche expert friend told me that what often happens is this: Distributor advance freezes up in full advance position, usually from lack of lube.....motor then pings a lot at low speed/high load due to over advance....piston(s) gets hammered and lets go. I'll be watching your thread and chiming in occasionally I expect.
Good luck!
Randy

[goose2]

Michael...does this look familiar?

[euro911sc]

WOW Randy!

How'd you get into my house and steel my parts... er... bits

*chuckle*

Well this is very interesting. I'm hoping to get to my heads today so I can see just waht the real damage is...

Did you have any broken studs? Broken parts to the ring landings?

After further thought I'm not so sure that the RTV could make it through the filter system to clog up something like a squiter. But, we'll see...

-m

[goose2]

I thought you'd find that photo interesting Michael. My story goes like this: I bought the motor from a guy (3) who bought it from another guy (2) who took it out of his 79 SC. Guy 2 got his car from guy 1 who claimed it had just had a total rebuild....p & c's and the whole works. Guy 2 drove the car for maybe 10-15k miles and pulled the motor for an upgrade (bigger motor). Guy 2 sold the motor to guy 3, repeating the claims for a complete rebuild. Guy 3 never used it and sold it to me....again reiterating that it had only a few miles since total rebuild. I put the motor on a stand to do some prep work for my installation, and when I turned it upside down on the stand...heard ominous sounds of metal moving inside the case. I pulled the screen and found the stuff in the photo. The curious thing is that, if everyone is telling the truth (except guy1), and I think they are....this motor ran well with debris inside for at least 15k miles. It does not have a broken piston at present, it seems, as all cyls have some compression, although I only turned it by hand to verify this...and leakdown numbers were good when guy 2 sold to guy 3 (if everyone's telling the truth). There's no way I'm going to trust this motor without a complete teardown and inspection of course, and if it was really run with that damage, I expect to find more carnage inside. It's all still a bit of a mystery, but it seems certain that someone along the line lied about the motor, and everyone after him is victim....most of all me, as I paid for a good motor and got s**T.

[Henry Schmidt]

Wayne is right "clean everything then clean it again".
Goose is correct about the distributors on 911SCs having advance problems but they mostly stick at little or no advance.
My Guess:
1982 911SC euro 9.8 to 1 compression.
What you are seeing is failure due to detonation caused bad low octane fuel.
This little guy was smoking some before the major failure occurred.
Rings in the drain pan are exactly why I limit CIS engines to 9.5 to 1.
And sometimes 9.3 is too much.

[starlifter1]

If you were running dual plugs would you do 10.5 to 1 on a CIS motor?

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by starlifter1
If you were running dual plugs would you do 10.5 to 1 on a CIS motor?

Well, I'm not Henry but...

Depends on what grade of premium you are using or if you wish to blend pump/race gas.

Here in California, where we are blessed with 91 octane as our highest grade of fuel, I would propose that the motor should be kept at 10:1 or under even with twin-plugs. You should err on the conservative side for a street car where your motor needs to last in miles rather than in hours.

Ralph

[euro911sc]

Well I pulled the heads today and to my lovely surprise I found them to be in good shape!! I was expecting that #3 would be shot and the various ring parts would have gotten into the chamber and bounced around. The cyl is also in decent shape.

I have not taken a look at the piston yet, but perhaps the bits and pieces I found made their way to the bottom of the case and left the rest of the workings unmolested... well I can hope anyway

Here is a pic of #3 head and cyl:





A little dirty, but I think they'll clean up nice!

Perhaps tomorrow I'll discover more Randy, I hope you have similar good luck!!

-Michael

[goose2]

looking good so far Michael...I'll have my heads off this weekend hopefully.
Randy

[JeremyD]

well that's lucky - looks like the rings only banged around on the valve

[Henry Schmidt]

I am glad to see the damage seems to be somewhat isolated. If you truly only need one piston (not very likely) we have good used pieces.
Please note the valve contact on the piston. Valve job and possible bent valve are evident.
All that oil around the lower half of the heads would indicated loose heads.
When you loosened the head nuts were they consistently tight ?

[euro911sc]

Actually Jeremy, thats just carbon on the valve that is flaking off. No dents or dings on the valve. I was really surprised! and happy!

Henry: The valve imprint on the cyl is my doing during disassembly and not during running. I had backed off all the adjuster screws and rotated the flywheel for some reason. The head barrel nuts were not too loose on this one, but loose else where. I lost one stud on #4 exhaust side.

You know... an evil being would get my hopes up with good findings like this and then have me find something like a broken crank... hehehee so I am guarded on the overall outcome

-Michael

[JeremyD]

Then if all the checks out - then your biggest issue may be cleaning. At the absolute minimum I would have your oil cooler professionaly cleaned. or replace it...

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally posted by euro911sc

You know... an evil being would get my hopes up with good findings like this and then have me find something like a broken crank......
-Michael

The greatest trick the Devil ever played on human beings was to convince them that he doesn't exist.

[Porsche84]

I had similar "shattered" piston rings in my 84 3.2 euro engine. The cause was due to detonation....two times! The problem was a plugged vent on the fuel tank, found that after the second failure. I suggest that you check that before you run the new engine very long. My new engine lasted about 1000 track miles. I was surprised to see the bits in the base of your engine. How would they pass by the piston to fall out? Your top piston ring groove will be deformed and you need to check that carefully on all pistons. Send your oil coolers to Pacific Oil cooler, much cheaper than replacing them. Do not attempt to clean them yourself! Good luck.