Well, the saga continues. Today I had about 4 hours to work on it. I started by taking off the wing and some of the brackets that hold it to the transmission. This car is a short tailed version. I then removed some of the wiring harness to the back along with the vent tubing and the air jack. Following this the transmission cooler, rear stabilizer adjustment system and transmission linkage came off. This left the suspension system including the brake ducting, brakes, brake lines, shocks, rotors, axles and cv joints, uprights, upper suspension frames which had to be removed before finally the separation and removal of the transmission from the bell housing. I discovered that the right rear bearing will have to be replaced since it is getting notchy. As is the case with most of these massive tear downs other problems are also discovered (music playing...$$$$). Some of the spherical bearings on the lower a-arm will also need to be replaced so if anyone knows a good inexpensive source for metric bearings I would appreciate it if you could let me know. I also drained the oil tank, transmission and fuel cell. I picked up about 7 gallons of race fuel that has been sitting in there for more than 5 years which should be good enough to run the lawn mower and other 2 cycle power tools. I also managed to spill a couple of gallons down my arm and onto the floor. Atleast the floor is a little cleaner. A few more nights and I should have the motor out. I ordered a engine stand adapter ring from Pelican Parts and hopefully it should be here in time to mount up the engine. I hope it fits. Attached are some pictures of the progress. I would like to post more but it takes forever to upload them. Thanks all for your thoughts. I am learning things I never knew about this car and motor.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131512292.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131512442.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131512566.jpg Note the last picture of the transmission and the input shaft. For those of you who don't know, there is a spline to spline sleeve that slides off so you can remove a cover plate on the bell housing and do a clutch replacement without removing the transmission....something I wish I had on my 911 GT4 when I had a clutch failure and had to pull out the motor...twice (actually the flywheel bolts had backed out and were interferring with the pressure plate mechanism).

Your goin great guns there.

This is such a great treat to be able to see the tear down of one of these cars.

Do you have any reference resources or are you just winging it on the disassembly?


P.S. I just noticed how impotent the list of chassis modifications in my signature look after viewing pictures of your car.:)

Today's progress includes the removal of the bell housing, starter, some of the support frame parts and oil tank and attached lines. The plumbing and wiring is a nightmare so I am going to label everything.

I found the Andial number. It appears to be #253. There are also some numbers taped to the intake manifold. Maybe one of you can tell me what they mean.

I got my engine stand adapter ring tonight. For those of you who have used it please bolster my confidence that only 2 bolts on the engine case are enough to support the weight of the engine!http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131609747.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131609847.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131609932.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131610035.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131610128.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131610356.jpg

Also, I don't know if you can make out the red material in the head cylinder seam but does anyone know if this is Loctite or some other sealant?

I am just winging it for the most part although I did take the car down this far about 8 or 9 years ago before. As the engine comes out I however will be in new territory. It really is not as difficult as it might look. You just need to be methodical and think twice/carefully wrench or force once. I remember the first time I took a look under the hood. My brother and I looked at each other and just said wow! I then just philosophically said "I guess if man made it man can take it apart" and we dug in. Towards the end of the disassembly I got a hold of a copy of the parts manual which helped some and talked to a few different people around the country for some tips here and there when we put it back together. I guess that makes me an expert now (LOL)......

Thanks very much for sharing pictures and for documenting what you are doing. This is a very rare oppurtunity for a lot of us to see one of these cars this close up.

Agreed! thanks for taking the time to take and post the photos!

Just an uneducated guess: maybe these are some sort of calibration results for fuel/oil flows or pressures at different engine speeds.

Doing a google on SHIRAZI is scary....:eek:

What did I tell you about the water pumps kind of looking like turbochargers?:) Of course, these "turbos" are driven off the intake camshafts.

AN 253 may or may not be the Andial engine number (although it probably is). The engine number should be stamped next to the flywheel close to where the oil breather/thermostat is. Wow, Andial built 253+ 962 motors? Not exactly. I believe they started at 100 with the building of their first race motor, which could have been a 917, RSR, 935, etc.

"Master" refers to the left bank (cylinders 1-3) and "Slave" refers to the right bank (cylinders 4-6). The 4 digit numbers for fuel and oil that are typewritten on the paper get programmed into the car's ECU when the engine arrives from Andial for installation. I don't remember/know how the numbers are derived, but I will guess is that it is for regulators/sensors/etc. I will have to ask one of my 962C engine buddies if you really want to know.:)

"Shirazi" has me stumped. My initial guess is that may have been the engine builder's last name, but to the best of my knowledge (and I can tell you for sure between 1982-1998) Andial/PMNA has never employed anyone with the last name Shirazi. Since my friend Steve left PMNA in 1998, Eric Bloss is the only one still building these motors when required. The rest of the guys are building Cup car and GT3RSR motors and their variations.

Ralph

could it be the customer?

I do believe that Shirazi was the name of the guy who bought the car from Schupann after the car ran at Daytona. I believe he had the motor redone at some point before I bought the car and I was told it had 4 hours on it and that those 4 hours were put on it by some Frenchmen at the Moroso track who were interested in buying it. Shirazi owned I believe the Auto Toy Store in Florida which I understand went out of business.

If you ever do hear from your 962 friends about what those numbers mean let me know. It is always fun to hear more history about the car.

253 is stamped on the location you decribed as well.

I had a few hours to work on the car today and got most of the final support frame off of the car along with some of the plumbing and exhaust headers. Oil was found in the forward pipes, something that has always bothered me. In the past when the car has been sitting for a few hours and you start it up it blows out the exhaust and smokes. The first time I started it I blew oil all over the driveway. At one of the first PCA race events I went to, the tech guys were convinced that the car had a problem and were afraid that I was going to spread oil all over the track. The almost didn't let me run until I could show them how it cleared up after a few seconds and that it is typical for this car....at least that's what I have been told too! I will be curious to see if there is an explaination when I take the motor apart aside from the fact that the oil tank is higher than the cylinders.

A few more pictures.....http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131675502.jpg

The one painfull experience was the removal of the out exhaust header bolts and my solution. You can't get a socket on them and an open end wrench hits the flanges and is too long, even if it is a stubby. Maybe they make a special wrench for this...I cut a cheap closed end 12 mm wrench I had laying around and had barely enough leverage to loosen the nut.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131675802.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131675910.jpg

I now only have 4 oil lines to remove, the inercooler/intake manifold connection tubing and a few wires and 4 nuts and the engine will come out. I thought I would get it out tonight but have a helicopter safety meeting to go to.

Notice all the Wiggins clamps on this beautiful engine. I thought only F1 and the space shuttle used that stuff.

BTW: we have a pretty good supply of Wiggens hardware in stock. Call if we can help.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131680617.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131680633.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131680652.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131680669.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131680684.jpg

Wiggins clamps are the state of the art clamps for fluid control/movement.
Two flanges with o-rings, one sleave and a hinged clamp. Sure beats the h*ll out of hose clamps.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131680920.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131680932.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131680942.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131680953.jpg

Don't know if this helps, but Florida Division of Corporations reports:

EXOTIC AUTO TOY STORE INC.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PRINCIPAL ADDRESS
2206 HOLLYWOOD BLVD.
HOLLYWOOD FL 33020

Corp Entitity - ADMIN DISSOLUTION

SHIRAZIPOUR, MORRIS

I wonder if that is the same Morris Shirazi that comes up in connection with all the IMSA races in the 90's. He was racing a Spiece Chevy. The results do mention an Auto Toy Store. So it must be him....

It is the same guy.

Do you have the o-rings for the Wiggens clamps? I will probably replace all of mine. I don't remember if they are special or not.

wiggins clamps on the water system make me think porsche wasn't so comfortable with water! or maybe andial are the ones who started using those clamps.

Wiggins clamps are another wonder of the world. Only weakness of these are the rather soft sealing sleeves. They wear fast from vibration and chafing. Stainless sleeves are a great fix and a preventive measure. Also a good idea to safety wire them upon assy and race prep.

Love reading and following your progress! keep the pics flowing:)

Jesus what I wouldn't give to get my wrenches on your car and help out. In contrast to usual I'D bring the beer for the chance to help....

Nice work so far and I certainly appreciate your taking the time to document this.

just wanted to subscribe to this thread
are these the clamps you are talking about (and the o-ring sizes)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131728974.jpg

and placed 13th at the 12 hours of Sebring in 1996

I didn't know that they had stainless sleeves for these clamps. Mine are Aluminum. There doesn't appear to be any wear on mine. Are you talking about in the aircraft industry, where I imagine there are longer hours of use?

rcwaldo:

Actually it has been a concern about these clamps that has made me worry about the engine and start this project. So far all the clamp sites look good but when I originally got the car I had a leak at the clamp site in the side pod which has a tube running from the front of the radiator into the tub and back to the front of the engine. When I removed the clamp the little ribs that hold the o-ring in place had corroded. I cut the tube and used a splice of rubber hose for a temporary fix to keep running that season and bought a new end to weld on at the time of this rebuild. It is so close to the fuel cell that I was afraid to do it at the time.

Well one thing is for certain, being Helidoc doesn't suck ;)

Would you be interested in adopting a 44 year old son?

I didn't know that they had stainless sleeves for these clamps. Mine are Aluminum. There doesn't appear to be any wear on mine. Are you talking about in the aircraft industry, where I imagine there are longer hours of use?

rcwaldo:

Actually it has been a concern about these clamps that has made me worry about the engine and start this project. So far all the clamp sites look good but when I originally got the car I had a leak at the clamp site in the side pod which has a tube running from the front of the radiator into the tub and back to the front of the engine. When I removed the clamp the little ribs that hold the o-ring in place had corroded. I cut the tube and used a splice of rubber hose for a temporary fix to keep running that season and bought a new end to weld on at the time of this rebuild. It is so close to the fuel cell that I was afraid to do it at the time.

LOL.....I just about have all of the kids out of the house and off to college so I'll pass for now!

Well, a few more hours of work on it today and I think I am ahead of my projected schedule. After this post hopefully we can move onto what this forum is supposed to be....an engine rebuilding forum. When I last posted on my progress I stated I only had a few more oil lines and wires to remove but as I got into it I had to remove the fuel tank filler pipes and a couple of hidden wires that I had not seen to the altenator. I also had to remove the vacume lines. After that I made up some jigs to lift the motor and it was pretty much smooth sailing after that. Below is a picture of the engine separated from the tub.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131775050.jpg
Here is a picture of thetub less engine.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131775196.jpg I then got a little ahead of myself and removed the clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel thinking that it would give me more room for the engine stand adapter. By the way, I initially put it on backwards, beveled side out. When I figured out what I had done wrong I put it on correctly and decided I better put the flywheel back on as well since that is the way it is in Wayne's book. I imagine I'll need it to lock down the crank at some point. I also will need a new pilot bearing and will probably replace the clutch and resurface the flywheel.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131775612.jpg Note the flywheel bolts. They have white substance on them which I assume is a Loctite type of material. Atleast it smells like old Loctite. In Wayne's book he talks about using it but some others have told me use light oil and torque them. Any thoughts on the subject?http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131775977.jpg
In any case, I then put the engine on the stand and following are some pictures at various angles. In the next day or two I will probably be cleaning things up and organizing parts that I have already removed. Thanks again for your interest and factoids. Hopefully I'll be posting the engine disassembly process soon.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131776367.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131776476.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131776561.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131776658.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131776778.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131776923.jpg

hallo
I would buy any bolt , what is torqued with more than 30 NM , new and use the original fastener Liquid .
For sure the Flywheelbolts and use Loctite as the Factory requires .
This is not your Grandfathers Oldsmobile Engine .
harald

:cool:

No twin plug. I guess its not needed w/watercooled heads and a plug over the top of the piston.

what does the motor mount bolt up to? I think I can see he mounting points in the firewall. Was the engine/tranny a stressed member of the entire chassis like on some motorcycles, or do the two halves of the car bolt together somewhere else?

Nice progress ... please do keep the updates and pics coming.

BTW, amazing how little appears to be left of the car once everything in the rear is removed :)

...best thread - EVAR!!!! I tune in, everyday like it's a mid-day Soap!!! Keep the updates coming.

Jeff

Another source for Wiggins clamps and other other tubing supply you might need: http://www.burnsstainless.com/Hardware/WigginsClamps/wigginsclamps.html

welcome to the wonderful world of pelican helidoc! this place is the best tool you'll ever get your hands on, if you can put up with everyone pestering you for pictures and data etc! great car too, looking forward to seeing inside the engine.

P.S. got any more pics?!

It's Beautiful! It looks like a work of art
Steve

Red loctite is what was used for those flywheel bolts, no doubt. Great progress, like others have mentioned!

Talk about a rich racing heritage! Helidoc, thanks for posting these pics. I have been a huge fan of the 962 since I first saw them at Road America.....many, many years ago. Beautiful chassis, dynamite sound.
Did some researching on a previous thread started by PorschePhd. I borrowed one of his 996TT rebuild photos below. Have you ever noticed the remarkable resemblance between the 996 heads and the 962 heads. Outside of the exotic water pumpers on the 962, the have an uncanny likeness.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131814198.jpg

I noticed this too!

"great minds think alike" :D

Having listened to them both on the dyno and on the track, the air-cooled motors sound better than the water-cooled versions IMO. The wastegates between the two had distinctive "chirps" when they opened as well.

We used to have to dyno them at night leading up to Daytona so as to not upset the other companies working in the industrial park where Andial/PMNA are located. There were many days/nights that we worked 24 hours straight leading up to the race to get the multitude of race and spare engines ready for the various teams. Than they all came back after the race and the process started all over again for the 12 Hours of Sebring. Once the "big" two were over things calmed down as the rest were short sprint races for the most part where the motors would run a few weekends and were serviced on a rotational basis.

Pretty surreal with a C motor on the dyno howling at 2:00 am and the headers/turbos glowing bright orange.:) With how hectic things were and how tired we got, it was amazing they ran and ran and ran...

Those were the good 'ole days.;)

Ralph

Ralph,
Regardless of the countless hours you had to put in.......wish I had been in your shoes!
I remember the 935's and the 962's at RA. The 935's seemed to be like an approaching thunderstorm or P-51's. The 962's....silence, then W-o-o-o-s-h!!! They seemed so stealthy sneaking up on you....so quiet, so frickin fast.

Believe me, it is nowhere near as glamorous as it may appear but it was fun for a few years when you're young, single and stupid.;)

Hey Helidoc, you had all day yesterday, is the motor completely stripped down?SmileWavy

Ralph