Does that include the flywheel bolts?

Doc, Harlald specifically mentions flywheels bolts in the quote. I would follow his recommendation just based on "insurance" for all the expensive and rare goodies that get bolted together. Hate to see you have to repair a crank and/or source a bell housing if the fastners decided to go.

LOL...Nope. I spent more hours than I care to say yesterday cleaning up parts and putting them into storage containers. One of the tricks one of my helicopter mechanic friends taught me was to clean everything off with mineral spirits. You hook a can of mineral spirits up to one of those air siphoning gun you can get at a place like Harbor Freight and blow everything off. It cleans real well and evaporates fairly quickly without leaving a residue or harming components. My problem was that I thought that since my garage floor needed cleaning (both from this project and a Bobcat tractor I had serviced a couple of weeks before) I would go ahead and do it in the garage (with the doors open and a fan blowing a large volume of air) and let the spirits drip down onto it and the oil spots. Unfortunately, 3 gallons was a bit more than I bargained for. The weather is cooling down so it didn't evaporate as quickly as when I used it on the helicopter in the summer and I had to use about 1/3 garbage can of saw dust that I had in my wood shop to soak it up. Besides the concern for my health with the fumes, my wife didn't want me in the house last evening until I removed my outer clothes. Atleast I am far enough out in the country that I didn't have to worry about the neighbors. So, in the future, I am going to have to do things differently. Maybe I'll be more proactive with laying cardboard down before taking things apart and using perhaps Brulin's solution (a nonvolitle cleaning solution used in the aircraft and space industry) and pressure washer. Therefore, and as a legal disclaimer, I am not now recommending this technique. Maybe someone else out there has some better suggestions.

So anyway, now that I have a clean shop I have set up a table and working area and will probably work on the motor this evening. I think I will first remove the altenator and engine mount, which does mount to the tub with four stubs on the fire wall. I will next remove the wiring harness and plenums to give me better visualization. Since the motor was working fine in the past I will probably leave as much of the intake and injector system intact as possible and just clean it up a little more.

One concern I have is taking off the cam holder and heads since there is apparently no chain. I may need to get some advise on this as to whether I need to mark some how where the gears and things line up, ect. I will get a better idea after the valve covers come off.

Hey Helidoc, Fluidcontrol.com is your best bet for Wiggins clamps issues,I use them in all my Hi-Per turbo conversions.,cheers,Antonio.

Sorry, Fluidcontrol.net, is the correct address.,cheers,Antonio.

We always replace flywheel bolts based on years of watching them fail.
Cheap insurance.

Wiggins o-rings: We stock some sizes but not all. Let me know what sizes you need and I'll check stock.

While on the subject of Wiggins, Viton O-rings are a great choice for this application.

I have been tied up most of the past week machining special Porsche engine tooling.

So far things seem to have gone pretty smoothly, good job helidoc! And thanks for all the photos, I am always looking to download photos of original Porsche factory racing engines and parts for my Porsche engine photo collection.

I only had about an hour and a half to work on the car today. It is just as well as the shop needed to air out. I still got to play back yard mechanic though working on one of my tractors when some hydrolic lines broke and sprayed all over me. Not my weekend for fluids.

Well now from low tech to higher tech. Todays efforts were directed toward removing the altenator which has an interesting off center nut which allows one to fine tune the pully alignment. I don't know if it is unique to this car or not. The motor mount was removed and it also has some interesting allen head type fasteners. Pictures of both to follow.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131947426.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131947598.jpg This then left the engine as in the following picture. Does anyone know which way to loosen the pully bolt, clockwise or counter clockwise?http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131947888.jpg
The rest of the time I spent labling and removing the wiring harness. I had to release the vacume tubes from the plenums and after disconnecting the injectors and various sensors I pulled the spark plug caps. With removal of just 4 10 mm nuts I was able to remove the plate with the 3 coils intact with the plug wires and remaining wire harness. That was about all I did today except remove one of the water tubes in front.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131948295.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131948413.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131948507.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131948624.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131948807.jpg Does anyone know a simple way to test these coils?
Finally one last technical photo that shows how the water cooling works on the final evolution Group C motors....note the tube from the the water pump to the lower cylinder head and the upper water manifold to the cylinder wall (water enters on the front side of the motor or back side if this were a regular 911 engine). http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1131949430.jpg

funny place for a turbo!

Pulley loosens CCW.,cheers,Antonio.

Thanks Antonio.

On a centrifugal pump like that one the liquid being pumped always enters in the middle or eye of the impeller and exits out the side (or bottom in the picture).
That is the extent of what I know about your engine ;)

You shouldn't need to mark the gears when you pull them off. You will have to use your dial indicator anyway to reset the cam timing when you reassemble the motor. I'm assuming that the motor is being completely torn down and gone through?

What you will need to do is be careful not to disorient the various shims between the gears as these determine the "play". They will also be varying thickness' so be careful not to mix them up while you are cleaning the parts. You should be able to pull the "chain box" housings as a unit.

With respect to the pulley, as stated before by Antonio the old adage "lefty-loosey righty-tighty" applies as well. The bolt I'm sure was loctited by Andial and just may be tough to break loose.

I'm meeting up with Eric Bloss this afternoon, I'll see if I can get you more info regarding the 4 digit numbers for fuel and oil that get programmed into the ECU.

Ralph

It is amazing to see how similiar it is to the regular flat six

Ralph, thanks for the info.

Jeremy,

There are quite a few components on this motor that are also used on your 3.2L based motor. None of the typical components obviously (pistons, crank, rods, oil pump, etc.) but some bearings, gaskets, seals, o-rings, hardware, etc are the same.:)

Ralph

Helidoc,

I had a nice chat with Eric this afternoon and he gave me some info that hopefully will be of use to you.

The 4-digit numbers, as I told you previously, are offset numbers derived from the Bosch sensors. The ECU treats the two cylinder banks almost like separate engines, hence one set of numbers for the "master" 1-2-3 side and another for the "slave" 4-5-6. The oil pressure numbers are of course combined for both banks.

The numbers that are printed on the paper taped to the plenum should also be on the Bosch sensors themselves. This handy guide is provided for you because the sensors are out of sight on the motor when it is in the car so one would not easily find them, let alone read them.

These numbers, when programmed to the ECU, provide you with accurate readings for fuel and oil pressure, which should be up to 5 bar for fuel and 7 bar for oil.

While I didn't mention your water-cooling concerns, Eric does show some concern regarding how long the car has been sitting and what kind of condition the fuel and electric systems may be in. He hopes that you have been using a fuel stabilizer and the computer batteries can also be problematic and need to be recharged otherwise "all hell can break loose" as he put it.

While it seems that you are well on your way to rebuilding the motor (and thanks again for sharing with all of us and helping me relive some good times), he would be happy to do it for you if you get yourself into trouble. I didn't tell him that you already had the motor out of the car, he just got done with a 917-30 rebuild where the car was shipped to him at PMNA, he rebuilt the motor and arranged for a shakedown at Willow Springs where the owner could run it around and make sure everything was up to par with him on hand. The same arrangements could be made for you and you could just head back north from there. I'm sure a whole slew of local Pelicanites following this thread would love to show up unannounced and cheer you on!

When you are ready to start the motor, Eric told me that the two of us can do a weekend road trip to your house when you are ready to fire it up. He has a whole checklist of things to do before and after the motor is running. If your not familiar with these procedures, it might not be a bad idea. All you have to do is house us and feed us (and we're both skinny guys).

He also has all of the engine files for 962/962C motors, including yours. The contents really won't tell you all that much, other than what components were replaced when, but he'll take a look and see if anything pops out in your engine's file.

Getting back to the camshafts, I took a look at my 1990 962C engine parts book and there are two "official" cam sets listed, but I know there are other profiles out there, although possibly only in prototype form. Anyway, here is what is listed in the book:

Inlet Cams: 9.3mm lift and either 276° or 288° duration
Exhaust Cams: 9.3mm lift and either 276° or 288° duration

It will be interesting (for me at least) to find out to what spec your motor was built. 3.0L or 3.2L and what cams are inside among other facets. If you need part number help, don't hesitate to ask. I can either provide them for you or I'll send you up the book if you promise to return it when finished.

Ralph

P.S. - Please PM your name if you don't want everyone else to know, it will help me in the future if I need to get other info from sources.SmileWavy

Gee, that sounds hauntingly familiar.

-Wayne

helidoc,

using the dishwasher for parts cleaning and the oven for power-coating baking are more ways straight into the dog-house :D

Ralph, thanks again for the info. Your discussion with Eric brought back memories on the battery in the computer. I am pretty sure that the battery must be done for by now and I will have to find out if that means the original programming is lost or maintained as emproms. I did see some of the same numbers on some of the sensors but the numbers are starting to wear off so it confirms what you are saying. I might take you guys up on the road trip offer but that is probably a ways off now.
Since my last post I have removed the intake manifolds, upper water manifolds, some more oil lines and bottom left water manifold. I am unable to get the right water manifold off due to interference by the main oil line that comes off the bottom of the right case. I can't get the manifold off because it hits the oil line block and I can't get the oil line block off because the manifold is in the way. I may have to wait until the heads come off on that side. I also have removed the oil pump on the cams. I was going to try and remove the cam covers tonight but ran into another snag. I really need to remove the water pumps first but need to get the impeller blades off before I can do that. I will probably have to make up a special tool for this and I am not sure if I need to heat the impeller up or what. I remember having to deal with this many years ago when I repaired the left one which had a leak but my memory is failing as to specifics. I am going to have to get some professional advice at this point. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132123089.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132123221.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132123353.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132123513.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132124165.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132124281.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132124399.jpg

Hi Heli,

I can help you with some of your questions (this time without even asking!:) )

First, the programming should not be affected by having dead batteries, the information should be stored and retained in the various eproms. That shouldn't be an issue for you(hopefully!)

I think that I may have mentioned this in an earlier post, but you can take heads & manifolds off together. This alleviates the issue with trying to get the oil line block/manifold off independently of each other. This is how the motors are disassembled at Motorsport. Since it appears that you will end up going this route, BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN REMOVING THE CYLINDERS AND MAKE SURE THEY COME OFF STRAIGHT! Remember, they are one unit and not individual pieces like an air-cooled motor. If not paying careful attention, you may damage/break some very expensive parts, and possibly the rings as well. Once these are off, you'll obviously won't have any problems removing the oil block. Upon reassembly, the components are fitted in reverse of above, namely as a complete unit.

The water pumps do not require a special tool for removal, but the shaft/keyway may be corroded and can be a real PITA (like you already know). The guys often had to use a torch to warm things up a bit before being able to remove them. Good Luck!:)

Ralph

P.S. - Looking good!

Bearing Source:

Southern Precision Bearing
2939 46TH Ave. North
St. Petersburg, FL 33714

888-274-2219

Bill Lund is the person to talk to. If it's a bearing, he can get it at a fair price. Likely the sphericals are Ina manufacture if they are metric.

Hope this helps.

Great thread. What are the specs on this car and motor?

Keep the updates coming! Neat project.

Todays progress seemed a little better. In the morning I had a nice conversation with Neil Harvey at Performance Developments who has done a lot of these motors. I had found an old card of his company from the earlier days in some old paperwork which had been given to me back in around 1997 or 98 when I had been down at Willow Springs with the car. I found his site on the internet which has a picture of a 962 type motor and some of the head modifications he was doing. This may be appropriate for my engine so I think I will be having him do the machine work. He has offered me the opportunity to work with one of his machinist to do any tear down that I am unable to do without special tools and then inspect and clean the parts down to the sub assemblies. This will allow me to take more pictures and document this project further. He of course has put the fear of the unknown in me with all the things that need to be checked and some of the problems that I hope I don't have with my engine in which parts are getting more rare by the year.

As was noted in my recent post the difficulties were partially solved. I removed the impellers by putting some Marvel oil on the shaft and using a small slide hammer with 2 small hooks and gently tapping each hole in an alternating manner. The left side came off much easier. Note the picture below that shows what I found on the left side only. Fortunately it does not corrode into the case and will clean up fine.

With the water pumps then removed, I was able to take off the cam covers. I tried my best but was unable to save the gaskets. Note the cam gears on one of the pictures below with a spanner type nut on the end. I am wondering if I can just leave them on the cams. The gears look pristine from what I can tell as there is no evidence of overheating or any pitting what so ever. The cam lobes look good too. I have also posted a close up of one of the scavenge oil pumps. I then removed the oil filter housing and have a picture of that. I finally removed the pully. An impact wrench didn't budge the bolt so I heated it up with a hand held heat gun an the bolt then came off easily. The rest of the night I spent putting parts in bags and bins so they don't get mixed up. Thanks Mike and Ralph for the info.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132212696.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132212739.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132212780.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132212826.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132212863.jpg

I guess I am not sure of what specs you are interested in?

tag

Helidoc,

As I mentioned in one of the beginning posts, you will be in great shape if you have Neil guiding you.;)

His resume is impeccable, not only with Porsche engines, but he also was an engineer with Toyota's GTP program and even further back in time was a big-wig with the Brabham-BMW team and their 1.5L turbo motors.

Looking forward to following your progress.:)

Ralph

Well, I continue to plod along. I am going to continue to disassemble the motor until I can't go anymore with my resources. Last night I removed the cams and cam holders. They actually came off quite easily with removal of the cams first, followed by nut removal and then some light taps with the soft blow hammer. Next the cyclinders were removed enbloc as well as the shims. Interestingly, the head bolts came off with the heads as they are stuck under the valve springs. the last items to be removed were the oil tube block, oil pressure spring, and intermediate cam gear and housing. The head studs all are magnetic so it looks like I don't have Dilavar. Everything so far looks in good shape including the cylinders, cam bearings, cam gears and the cams themselves making me wonder if I really did need to take it apart. Atleast now I know and will be able to sleep at nights. I didn't work on the engine today as I went to Buttonwillow raceway and let my son drive my FM. It was fun to watch him drive a real race car and race track for the rist time. None-the-less he did manage to have one spin off track so we do have a little mess to clean up (those of you who have been to Buttonwillow know how caustic the dirt is there). This weekend I may try to split the case and do the final disassembly but, I am thinking of going to the SF Auto Show. I then can do some cleaning and organizing before taking things off to the machine shop for evaluation and treatment! More picture below:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132377444.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132377492.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132377524.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132377538.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132377687.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132377798.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132378379.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132378401.jpg

Great photos, thank you! I think a lot of people are following along even though they are not necessarily posting. cheers!

helidoc,
It seems that you got some wear on the cam bearings, so it was'nt a bad idea to take it apart, also I think it was running a little rich, but I may be wrong, the valve faces seem to have to much carbon on them, but I guess it also depends on how the car actually was driven.,either way enjoy your project.,kind regards, Antonio.

helidoc,
Way to go!!! What a series of posts.
On your last post of photos. The last photo in the column where the piston/rod assembly is sticking out of the block......is that a piston squirter in the lower right hand side of the spigot? That is one serious squirter if it is. :)

It is interesting that the valve pocket area is so carboned up. Yet in the photos of the piston tops, there is practically no carbon build up. May be a case of the engine being test fired by the seller but never warmed up and under load?

Cool head studs - and thanks for the progress report.

Helidoc,

Looking great! Are you enjoying the teardown thus far?

Have you had a chance to measure the pistons and cylinders? 95mm or 98mm?

Interesting to note that there are 3 different 95mm pistons for the 3.0L motor, depending on the CR that is desired.

They can be had with 9:1 CR, 9.5:1 CR or 10:1 CR.:)

Ralph

Antonio, here is a close up of the worst cam bearing and the wear on the cams.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132469640.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132469698.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132469698.jpg

Also, the last time the car was fired up was when the Porsche Parade was in Sacramento (must have been around 2000) and that was only to move it from the trailer to the display area. That may be why it is the way it is in appearance on the cylinders and piston tops.

Yes it is a squirter.

Ralph, the pistons are 95 mm in diameter. And as for enjoying the tear down so far, well if it were not for the mess and all the cleaning up to do, I think so. I don't particularly enjoy all of the chemical cleaners as well. I have been through about 5 cans of brake cleaner so far. I don't know how people can work on these things all day without getting sick from that aspect of it.

Well, now for today's progress. I worked on the engine for about 9 hours today but most of the time was spent on cleaning and organizing the head, cylinders, cam holders and cam/lifter parts. When I had that under control I got around to removing the pistons. Boy those snap rings that hold the piston pin in place can fly! I thought I was going to loose a couple but found them half way across the garage.

I next got around to finally taking the case apart. Once I had all the through bolts out I removed all the periferal nuts. I did make the usual mistake that novices make in forgetting (or failed to see) one of the main bolt nuts inside the case towards the pully end of the engine. I was gently tapping the case to try and get it appart but it wouldn't come. I noticed it separating on the opposite side of the bolt so I figured things out before I did any damage. My wife (who knows how much this thing is worth) came out to visit when I was trying to separate the case halved but went back into the house before it came apart. I sent her into a panic later this evening when I came in and told her I had "cracked the case" when she mistakening thought I had literally cracked it (knowing I have done such things in the past). Well, I am nearly done with the disassembly and will probably leave the rods on the crank when I take every thing to the machinist. I might take them off to look at them first. I haven't decided yet. I still have a lot of cleaning left to do and may take some more pictures of the parts I didn't show before. Below are some pictures of todays progress and close up of the worst bearing surfaces.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132471324.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132471378.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132471448.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132471456.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132471478.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132471490.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132471716.jpg

Helidoc,
On the cams, should micropolish them, it is interesting to note that they don't "knife edge" the crank,instead, it is completly rounded.,and they don't "dove tail" the case, but it seems that the lower inner walls of the case are kind of ball pinned, at least they seem to be kind of polished,maybe for good oil runoff? Love those rods.,all those wear patterns on bearings I won't worry about them much, just make shure everything is within spec at the lower end, I have seen much worse without any big issues., cheers,Antonio.

After doing a couple of engines myself, getting ready to start a Euro 3.0l, and with a 2.7 waiting after the Euro, I am really enjoying this thread! Keep up the great work and keep those pictures coming!! Thanks for sharing helidoc. Glad to see I'm not the only one with an understanding wife... I know it helps! Lou