John,

I am preparing to seal up my case tomorrow. However, after reading this thread I am having second thoughts.

1) I was unaware of the opinions regarding the use of 3 different sealants (4 if you count Curil-T). I am sold on the idea. Hopefully I can find these other sealants locally.

2) The picture of your case is ridiculous (in a good way). I can't believe how clean it is. It looks fresh from the factory. After having mine cleaned at a local machine shop, I spent 30-40 additional hours hand cleaning. I was comfortable with my work until I saw your picture :(.

Thanks for the great diagram and thanks to everyone else who shared in this thread.

Oh, and I am now worried about those blue through bolt o-rings. They don't seem to have a very good reputation!

Cheers,
Craig

There's a Dow sealant for O-rings, Henry Schmidt offers it for sale, along with the others noted here. Also, Viton (green) versions of these are the ones to use.

Very timely for this thread to be bumped to the top. I can add my recent experience:

-On my recent 2.7 build, I used Henry's Threebond x2/Loctite 574/Curil T method. This really worked out well, I am very pleased with the results. In the course of planning the build, I've talked to a few pro builders who really like the Threebond as a case seam sealant as well. Good enough for me. Having said that, my engine assembled with 574 is pretty dry.

-This time around, I did NOT use Curil T on the crank snout or flywheel seals. So far, both are dry. They were much easier to install WITHOUT the Curil T. When using the Curil, the seals very effectively walk themselves out of their seated positions unless I pin them down overnight. Maybe I have been using too much of it? Dunno, but I'm done with it on crank seals. I did use the Curil T on my cylinder base gaskets, breather gasket, cam thrust plate gaskets & o-rings, etc. I think that's about it.

MCA/Craig - if you've got the sealants you need and want to proceed with your build, here's a tip. Assemble the bottom end without ANY through-bolt o-rings. If you're assembling alone, this really helps you to get the case together quickly. When you're happy with the completed bottom end assembly, you can then remove your through-bolts and install the o-rings - one at a time. Remove bolt, install o-rings, reinstall bolt, torque to spec, then move on to the next bolt, and so forth (in the torque sequence, if you're really being anal - I do/am), until all o-rings are installed.

It is easier to get confused about what bolts have been ringed and which haven't this way. Not only do I pre-count my o-rings twice to make sure I start with the right number, but I also mark each acorn nut with an 'X' using a Sharpie after installing the o-rings and re-torquing. If all the nuts have 'X's and I am out of o-rings, then I think I'm in good shape :). Having done several builds with both the blue and green o-rings, I would say hold out for the green ones, no question. They really fit much better. I don't think I've ever had a green one 'squeeze out' from under the washer like I almost always had with the blue ones.

Great idea. Once I get all of the through bolts torqued, can I immediately go back and include the o-rings or do I need to wait a period of time to allow the case sealant to set?

I plan on moving forward with the blue o-rings for the through bolts. Actually, I have two sets of the blue rings (ordered too many by mistake) and the set that came inside the gasket kit seem to be WAY cheaper than the darker blue rings that came in a separate baggie. In fact, I was quite surprised to see that one of the rings in the gasket kit was torn.

Maybe the darker blue rings are stronger? Not sure. Anyhow, I suppose that I can go with the green rings if I start having problems.

Thanks,
Craig

One builder suggested using black Permatex silicon on the thru bolt blue seals. Any thoughts?

In my next most perfect life somebody is going to put a chart together grouping all these products keyed to Waynes bible.

Craig - Will you be applying any sealant (574?) to the main bearing webs? If so, give this an hour to set. If not, any work you do on the main bearing hardware should not have any impact on the case perimeter/seam, especially if you only loosen and re-torque one bolt at a time.

Old Tee - try a search here on the engine forum, this one has indeed been debated hotly. I'm strongly against it...I did try it but did not like it one bit.

Having just followed dtw on a 2.7 rebuild I have a little advice too. I would not bother putting the crank seal (flywheel side) in until the case is together. I put Curil T on the seal as I put the case together and it walked out. PIA. Another thing I did that I won't do again is put the assembly lube on the crank bearing before I rolled the sealer on. I will put the case sealer on first, then I would put the assembley lube on the bearings, and I would use only a little, I put way too much on. When you drop the crank in the lube will squeeze out and get on the case sealer at that joint. Not good. I would skip the silicon on the case bolts, I did. I did not want any silicone floating around inside the case. I put the case together without the orings on the case through bolts and then took them out one at a time and then put the orings on and then torqued them. Make sure you hold the bolts when you torque the nuts, if the bolts turn you can tear the orings.
One more thing I did which goes against everything the engine builders suggest is that I put the nose bearing in without sealer, I just put some lube on the oring. I did not have any leaks there. Mine was not leaking when I took it apart, my case did not need to be align bored so I left it like the factory put it together.
Ray

Curil T is on the no-no list for the seals, for the exact reason Ray states.

Dow 55 is a specific sealant/lube for O-rings. Why not go with current chemical technology here. Blue o-rings are the crappy ones....green are Viton, and are the ones you should be using for their superior strength.

Putting lube on the bearings AFTER the sealant goes on does not seem like a good idea to me, with my total of 1 rebuilds. How much lube are you putting on? Everything n moderation. You're on the clock when the sealant goes on, and I cannot imagine blowing X amount of time screwing around with bearing lube after-the-fact. You run a bigger risk of slopping lube on the sealant, IMO.

Well, I ran out of time today and couldn't get the case together. I spent the day cleaning and organizing my bags of seals / bolts / nuts / washers.

Thanks for the tip regarding the through bolts. In all likelihood I will stick with the 574 unless I can get my hands on the other stuff before Friday.

I ran into the problem of the roller picking the lube off the bearings as I was rolling the 574 on. As far as being on the clock goes, the 574 does not start to cure until there is no air around it, or in other words until the case halves go together. You can put some 574 on a surface and leave it exposed to the air and the next day it will still be pliable. Anyway it is a matter of technique and whatever way you choose to put the stuff on. And yes I used plenty of assembly lube. Too much for sure. But next time I will roll the case, then lube the bearings. If you skip putting the orings on the through bolts before you torque them you have a lot more time anyway. I just went back and took them apart one at a time and then put the orings on and retorqued. When I sealed my case the whole thing was torqued up about 30 minutes after the case halves went together. As far as the sealant went, I put a very light coating of the 574.
Ray

When you guys say "rolled on" when referring to the sealant application ... what does that mean exactly?

The factory manual calls for rolling the sealer on with a short nap roller if I recall. I just went to Wally World and they carry a small roller and tray with foam rollers and nap rollers and a handle, the rollers are about 4 or 5 inches wide. The whole thing is like 7 bucks. I used the foam roller. I would not use their cheap nap rollers you might wind up with fuzz in your sealer. Anway I used the tray like a paint tray, loaded the roller with sealer. Then used the roller on the case to spread the sealer. I did not use much sealer and the roller put it on nice and even.

Are you rolling sealant on the left case half or on the right case half? (I think you have to apply to the right half if using 574).

If you are rolling on the right case half (side mounted to stand) are you doing it before installing the crank, pump, and intermediate shaft?

Seems like it would be tough to get a roller in those tight spaces with the case internals installed.

Of course, you roll it on the half without studs sticking out of it. Just like the factory did.

I wonder why Wayne's rebuild book says to spread it on the right side? On page 133 it shows a picture with the sealant applied - side mounted to engine stand with studs in it.

Is there are reason he specifies it this way?

Also, how do you know how the factory did it? (not being a jerk - just curious)

Ok, I admit it, I rolled the side without the studs! I even used 574. I should be ashamed of myself. Seriously. I have no idea what difference it makes. But you will still have to use a brush to get sealer into the tight spots. I don't have any case leaks either. I get one drop of oil off my sump plate, but I only got one gasket in my gasket kit, so I had to use one old one. I have new ones on order.

I started a thread about the 'sealant on which case half' question two months ago. The discussion:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/408468-why-dont-more-us-put-adhesive-upper-case-half.html

If all you're using is 574, then the clock thing isn't as significant. But, I still think 574 would be altered if left exposed to the air. Some of the liquid has to evaporate, thereby making it's squeeze properties different, and MAYBE, not as consistent/effective.

But, I used Henry's recommendation of 4 sealants, so I had some other stuff to concern myself with besides 574 only. I never had any issue of getting lube in my 574, or vice-versa.

Would someone tell me why it is necessary to add any sealant to the main bearing caps/ saddles? What purpose does this do? If you measure your clearances, would this not add to the clearance? If not, then what purpose does it achieve? If it leaked, where would it leak to?

On Neil's (Performance Developments) advice, I did NOT add any sealant to this area. Over 13,000 daily driven miles since my rebuild and no issues to report with the case leaking.

EDIT: the only area that has developed a tiny weep of oil (not even dripping yet, but it won't be long) are the chain covers. I used a thin coat of 574 on the gaskets. I have purchased new gaskets and will either use a coat of Hylomar or Curil-T on them and button it back up.

I'm about ready to start the building process and having this thread revived was fortunate and timely. I decided that getting the Viton green O-rings was imperitive and stopped by the local NAPA store for some more sealants. They had never heard of ThreeBond.

I called and talked to Henry at SuperTec and he discouraged me from usng him for this small order as parts is not their preferred business. Their website does have the ThreeBond products listed in this thread. Henry did not say weather he had them on hand but referred me to Engine Builders Supply in Reno.

EBSracing.com was my next stop and I called them. They do not have the ThreeBond products listed in this thread and said they are no longer being produced because of environmental issues. They did have ThreeBond 1194. I ordered the Vitron Green O-Rings and RSR seals while I was at it.

Has anyone sourced the ThreeBond 1101 and 1211 lately?

We do have ThreeBond products listed on our website and we would be more than happy to sell our products.
Our web site clearly states that we have a minimum order of just $100 dollars.
You wouldn't believe the number of grommet hunters who ask to buy 6 washers and a nut. The purpose of the minimum order is to allow us to sell parts and supplies without loosing money on each sale.

As with all symbiotic relationships, the buyer /seller relationship should benefit both parties. If a company can afford to give something away [loose money on a transaction] then they are making it up somewhere else. Generally that means overcharging on something/everything else. We do not operate that way.

I think I ruined it for everyone when I called Henry for a 915 needle bearing spacer a couple years ago. Sorry guys ;).

It is good to know that there is a source for the ThreeBond products. I apologize to Henry for overstating his concern with parts orders. He did explain to me on the phone that outgoing orders need to be driven to the shippers requiring an employee to do so. SO.. give the SuperTec site a lookover and find some other goodies to boost your order when you need these sealants.

I think Henry has gathered a kit so that you guys can get what you need if you cannot get it from Pelican.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1215710536.jpg

I thought I'd save a little time just sourcing the 574 locally...what a PITA. Ended up accidentally ordering the huge tube which would probably cover 5 rebuilds then ordered the smaller tube which took forever. I should have just ordered from Pelican like everything else. Probably will for the Curil T but now I've sort of been scared off of using it.

I could have used the big tube since I had to seal my case TWICE!!!

Yep, long story ... but I had to tear the case apart 3 hours after sealing it. I used up all of my 574 on the second try and I need more for the cam housings. The strange thing is that when I took it apart, most of the sealant was either on the inside mating surface or it had squeezed to the outside. Not much on the mating surfaces at all ... makes me wonder.

I, too, thought I could get it locally ... no dice.

For the record, I used 574 on the left side of the case. I will report back after I get the engine completed and drive it a while ... let you all know if it leaks.

Hopefully I have not shot myself in the foot by switching to the smaller tube. I guess the purpose of the 574 is to fill in the microscopic gaps and keep it from leaking which would "seal" it but not impact the fit of the bearings on the crank. I'd hate to have to account for the "sealant factor" when putting an engine back together.

I found all my Three Bond sealants here, http://www.z1enterprises.com
This company is really good and reliable.

I wonder if posting a link to a Pelican Parts competitor is really a great idea.

Allow me to state the facts here; first of all, Z1 Enterprises is a company that supplies Motorcycle parts and accessories. Does Porsche make motorcycles? I know BMW does but we are not talking about BMW, we are talking about Porsche and Porsche engines. Secondly, to my understanding on this BB, people help each other out. In the past people on this BB have helped me tremendously, and with out this BB I would have been in serious trouble, therefore I would try to help my fellow pelican's to the best of my ability. Lastly, if I have offended the higher up's at Pelican by posting a measly link so that a fellow Pelican can sleep a little bit easer tonight than I offer my apologies. If you want to talk about loyalty to this company, than I am loyal and I have every single receipt that tally way over 13k so far to prove that I am. So instead of being a flamer be a helper instead!

I agree with you. It seems like a popular sealant that is not offered by Pelican. As a result, sharing the source is both fair and proper.

Thanks! (although I already used Loctite 574 that I purchased from Pelcian :))

Maybe you should search Henry's name on the forum here before you make a suggestion such as this?

Posting links to competitive websites is a violation of the rules. They are simple rules and many posting privileges have been suspended for just that simple infraction. Henry was just pointing that out.
As for being a "Flamer instead of a helper" I assume you're kidding. Henry has helped more people on this forum than you with your limited understanding can fathom.
The sealing techniques listed in this thread were primarily quotes from him. Go back and read and perhaps you'll get it.

I don't know about all of you but when I click on Henry's XXXXXXXX.com site I just get porn!! No sealer?

I wasn't referring to Henry as a flamer; I was just making a general statement about how people should simply help each other out when people are in need regardless of these so called rules & regulations. I did read thread and maybe my understanding is limited but at the very least I'm not quick to attack and point out every single mistake us people with limited knowledge make. I didn't mean to come off as a smart ass in my previous post so I apologize to HS if I did, and I wouldn't doubt his knowledge on the subject matter one bit. Infraction you say? How about the mentioning of EBS and Nappa on this thread, are they not competitors? And, I can guarantee even more so than the link I provided earlier. I provided the link in good nature, with no harm intended but again my knowledge is limited. HS thanks for the infraction warning, Turbo_Pro I can care less if I get suspended, I speak my mind whether it's limited or not.

Pelican Parts provides this forum for free. They don't get paid by any of us for this very valuable service. They and volunteers have compiled a great deal of information as a service to us while asking for little in return.
We are very lucky to have several world class experts posting here regularly, just to share their wealth of knowledge for our benefit. I truly appreciate all that these people do for us for free, asking for little in return.
Pelican Parts asks that we not post links to their competitors' websites and that's very little to ask in return for all of the time and expense that is required to build and maintain a forum as big and comprehensive as this. They even allow used parts classifieds! They could be selling some of those parts to us new, but they see classifieds as yet another service that we can benefit from.
Have a little grace and some class, please.

This is true and I appreciate it, but be aware that Pelican is first of all a company who's not a charity ; hosting forums like this is a very good way to "hold" part of the market. Most members on these lists are likely to check Pelican first for parts, and in fact even pay more for parts just because it may help fun the list. It builds up strong "brand" loyalty, and in fact as compared to a bricks and motar company, is a pretty good investment for the advertising and market presence it creates. Creating links to competitors erodes the brand and that is why its not allowed.

Overall , its a fantastic symbiotic strategy and has benefits to both sides. There are other just as active forums (Rennlist comes to mind) that do not have this orientation, but have memberhship fees that fund the infrastructure. They also have some restrictions regarding sponsors and such.

IMHO anyways, for what's its worth!

Cheers,

Mike

A noble goal (helping those in need) but the self serving arrogance of the last part of your statement (regardless of the so called rules........) is overwhelming.
When people come together in a community, self control & community standards (rules) are the only things that prevent anarchy. Learning to exist in that community requires that you respect the rules when expressing yourself. If being suspended doesn't matter to you, perhaps you should just move on now.

I personally enjoy this community and believe me I am not a champion of rules but this forum is worth the simple effort required to obey the standards set by the owner.

Try to remember that this is private property and as such the owner can regulate the content any way he sees fit.

I think I'll climb down off my soap box now, cheers.

I got my engine back from the shop and did the initial run in before break in. The engine had gone back to the shop back in February because it was leaking from all of the base cylinder gaskets the worst of them was coming from #3. Well the shop got all of the leaks plugged but #3 still is dripping. Should i at this point go break the engine in and drive it, and live with the leak. I plan on removing the engine to adjust the valves in about 500 miles of break in driving. is there anything i can smear on the area that i find is leaking like a Threebond 1104 to slow it up. If i bring my engine back to the builder i am afraid i will have to wait another year to drive my car it's already been over a year and a half since this started.
I am at a point now to consider shipping it out to Henry to look at...

I TOOK THE CAR OUT FOR A COUPLE OF BREAK IN RUNS
Car is very scary, even trying to drive it careful was very difficult for me. I am sure i will get used to in time, but feel i need a few more gears.
I had a hard time looking at the gauges and when i was i didn't like what i saw, I was boosting way higher than what i should of been since i set it lower for the break in.
I couldn't hear the BOV let go either. Everything is hooked up the way it always has been, and double checking it i find nothing in the wrong order. I will turn back my MBC further to see if that helps things.
I was at 14lbs in a snap. not sure of the A/R's but when i did look they were on the leaner side of my comfort zone.
The BAD news now, engine is leaking oil from the same areas as it was before, this sucks so bad, the shop has wasted so much time getting the engine built the first time and the second time now, i have waited over a year and a half for this engine to
get built right and it looks like i am back to square one. I could drive it sparingly for awhile and mop it up after every drive, or i pull the engine and ship it out to Henry at Supertec to fix right and hope i get it back to enjoy the Fall season.

Anyhow it was fun finally driving the car again, but am very disappointed with the shop guys right now.

I am going to drink a few Benders and go to bed........