The Complete Engine Sealant Thread...
 

OK folks, I did some searching and was not able to really find the clear, definitive combined wisdom on sealing up the engine.

So, I am requesting it here, in the hopes that this thread will be searchable and valuable to others besides myself in the future. Since I will be sealing up my 964 derived engine next week (fingers crossed), I do have a short term vested interest :)

Here are the engine items that I would appreciate hearing about the most sucessful sealing methods. _Please_ add any areas that I have omitted!

Outer Case Halves: Threebond 1104

Bearing Saddle Surfaces: Loctite 574

#8 Bearing (balancer end) O-Ring: Threebond 1211

Case Thru Bolts: Dow Corning 111 on Green Viton O-Rings

Flywheel Seal: DRY

Balancer Seal: DRY

Intermediate Shaft Cover to Case: ThreeBond 1211

Oil Breather Cover to Case: ThreeBond 1211

Cylinders to Case: Curil K-2 or ThreeBond 1211

Cam Towers to Cylinder Heads: Threebond 1104

Cam Chain Housings to Case: Threebond 1104

Cam Chain Housings to Cam Towers: Threebond 1104

Cam Chain Housing Cover to Cam Chain Housing: Threebond 1104

Gaskets: Thin coat of Loctite 574

Thanks a lot folks, I really appreciate the feedback!

EDIT: Most Popular solutions for sealing added to each item above

Re: The Complete Engine Sealant Thread...
 

Outer Case Halves: ThreeBond 1104 applied to the case half NOT attached to the engine yoke

Bearing Saddle Surfaces: Nothing

#8 (?) Bearing (balancer end): Threebond 1211 (very thin coat on the number eight bearing saddles and keep the o-ring)

Case Thru Bolts: Use the green vitton o-rings lubed with Dow Corning 111

Flywheel Seal: Curil-T

Balancer Seal:???

Intermediate Shaft Cover to Case: Loctite 574 (smear it lightly on both sides of the gasket)

Oil Breather Cover to Case: Loctite 574 (smear it lightly on both sides of the gasket)

Cylinders to Case: Curil-T

Cam Towers to Cylinder Heads: ThreeBond 1104

Cam Chain Housings to Case: Loctite 574 (smear it lightly on both sides of the gasket)

Cam Chain Housings to Cam Towers: Loctite 574 (smear it lightly on both sides of the gasket) and Dow Corning 111 on the o-ring

Cam Chain Housing Cover to Cam Chain Housing: Loctite 574 (smear it lightly on both sides of the gasket)

I used the Dow Corning 111 on most of the other o-rings, too.

I Hope to start my engine like in the next couple of days...I'll report back if there are leaks

I should have added -

Bearing Thru Bolt Locations inside case:

on the thru bolts, there a two different colored o rings which are best? Also where do you get some of these sealants?

The green ones are best and I got all of my supplies from Henry Schmidt of Supertec Performance.

Question about threebond on the case halves. Why does it go on the case half not attached to the yoke?

Also, is threebond 1211 only used on the nose bearing? Research on this boards shows some (experienced) builders use Curil T or nothing but the Viton ring with oil.

thanks,

-Rob

I applied my sealant to the case half that DID NOT have the permiter studs, and that's the left case half...the one not normally attached to the engine holding fixture. You can do it how you like. It just seemed easier to apply, rather than going around all of those studs.

Research will also show ThreeBond 1211 on the nose bearing. And yes, only use the 1211 on number 8. I pretty much followed Henry Schmidt's sealing methods.

Keep in mind, I'm only stating what I did and used...it's not gospel. Everyone has their own technique and methods.

Henry's methods are what I wanted to use. I emailed him my parts list needed, including soliciting his sealant suggestions, but no response. So here we are :)

Some useful threads:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/237341-case-sealant-8-main-bearing.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171788&perpage=20&pagen umber=1
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=210161&perpage=20&highl ight=case&pagenumber=1
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/267378-threebond-case-sealant-experiment.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/256281-thru-bolt-o-rings.html

Make sure you edit the first post with findings so it's all in one place.

As others have stated, its very challenging (and frustating) to learn all the different methods employed but great engine builders and then to determine which methods to follow yourself - information overload!

Personally I've done a lot of second guessing. Sealants, procedures, no sealant on the main webs, no loctite on the rod bolts, curil T on the nose bearing, etc, etc...

An example is the recommendation to use 574 on the main webs or the main journals. Since I've never done a 911 rebuild I'd probably mess that up - since some experts don't use it there I'm thinking I may do the same and hence less chance of my screwing that part up.

I'm thinking the same about the nose 8 bearing. Do I want to buy a tube of 1211 just for that bearing when some experts use nothing or a bit of curil T? Like I said, I'd probably mess that up so I'm leaning on going with Viton and oil like some experts recommend. I would fully trust Henry to use all those sealants correctly but not myself. And Henry is a very busy guy and to expect him to baby me along on those tasks might not be fair.

I am going to use threebond on the case perimeter since that seems to be an easier product to apply and work with than 574.

Some consolidation that will be edited to the first post later:

For many years we used 574 Loctite but now ( for the last 4 years) we use ThreeBond 1104 and 1211 for perimeter sealing on the case ( 1211 on # 8 main bearing) Where the case joins at the through bolts we use 574. For the the cam towers we use 1104 and where there are gaskets we use a very thin coat (very thin mind you) of 574. On the cylinder base gaskets we use Curil T. Four glues equal no leaks. Over kill ? MAYBE No leaks GUARANTEED.

O-ringing the case spigot seems to be the best repair. We have been using ThreeBond 1211 on 3.6 cylinders bases when it is not possible the o-ring the case spigot.
It has worked well and would recommend this process if o-ringing is not an option.

The best thing I can say to guarantee your success is get your cases as clean as possible. CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN
We use MEK and a stainless tooth brush to clean all sealing surfaces, but be careful, MEK is poison and it will make you sick if you get it on your hands or breath it. Please!! Use gloves and a mask.



__________________
Henry Schmidt
SUPERTEC PERFORMANCE

a thick layer of 574 often ends up being a thick layer between the case halves. get all the tools ready and all the orings on the studs and don't waste any time. tighten the perimeter nuts first and then the mains. with other sealers, i would normally tighten the mains first, but the anaerobic quality of the 574 is tricky and may set up faster than you think when case halves are assembled. yes, the 730/731 product does skin over quickly, and has a tendency to not stick as well to the half it wasn't applied to. if you ever split a case in the future you will see what i mean.


__________________
john walker's workshop

I will be sealing the case halves on my 3.6 in the next couple weeks as well, so this thread has perfect timing.

Here are some quotes from Henry's messages I saved:

"We have been using ThreeBond 1211 on 3.6 cylinders bases when it is not possible to o-ring the case spigot. It has worked well and would recommend this process if o-ringing is not an option."

"#8 bearing
We use the stock O-ring and Threebond 1211. We put a thin layer in both sides of the case (at the # 8 main only) and set the crank / bearing in. 1211 gives you 30 minutes to assemble but you should be ready when you drop the crank in."

"For many years we used 574 Loctite but now ( for the last 4 years) we use ThreeBond 1104 and 1211 for perimeter sealing on the case ( 1211 on # 8 main bearing) Where the case joins at the through bolts we use 574. For the the cam towers we use 1104 and where there are gaskets we use a very thin coat (very thin mind you) of 574."

"We use three products to seal our cases.
ThreeBond 1211 on the # 8 main bearing.
ThreeBond 1104 on the case perimeter cam towers.
Loctite 574 on the main webs and miss gaskets.
Curil T on the cylinder base gaskets.

On the gaskets that are prone to leaking we use a very thin coat of 574. Very thin , like a glaze."


Kirk

Thats funny, I guess we were both posting the same quotes at the same time.

Kirk

Per ChrisBennet

Thru-Bolt O-Rings

The O-rings that come in the gasket kit are blue - and suck. Get the green ones from Henry or EBS and lube them up with some Dow Corning 111. The 964 gasket kits come with the blue O-rings also but they seem to work OK in that application.

I use white teflon sealant paste with the green O rings from Henry for the through bolts. That is something I have l learned from the type 4 threads. Jake Raby (he's a big type 4 guru), also uses this stuff on the green oil return tubes O rings instead of just oil.

I tried using the Curil T on the pulley seal as described in Wayne's book. After about 20 minutes the pulley seal pushed it self out about 1/8 of an inch. I now install these dry.

I like using Loctite 574 between the cam carrier and the heads too.

Michel

I have always used loctite 574 on case halves and cam towers with success. But on my 3.4 I am following Henry's advice and using threebond 1104 on the case halves and cam towers. Oil on the viton through bolt orings and threebond 1211 on the #8 (which I normally install dry). Oil on the viton oil return tube o-rings and curil-t on the main seal and cylinder base gaskets (which I normally install dry).

I figure it is best to experiment on my own motor to see what I think of these sealants. I don't mind pulling it out again in the winter if it turns out my previous methods were better. Would hate to have to do that with a customer though!!

Cheers

The funny thing is my shop manual for my 993 indicates that case sealant (i.e. locktite) should be applied to the bearing saddles ; so for the 993 that is what Porsche recommended.

I used Locktite on the saddles and Threebond on the perimeter (again on the case half not on the stand). I used a light coating of Curil-T on #8 and all the O rings have 111. No leaks but I do not have that many miles (yet).

Cheers,

Mike

Just about any of the approaches mentioned here will work.

The key is to keep it Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean! All of the sealant in the world won't help if you don't clean off all of the previous debris. This is far more important than which lotion or potion to use on the sealing of the case...

-Wayne

The throughbolt O-rings in my gasket set are indeed the blue ones, and I would prefer to use the green viton ones.

Does pelican have these, and if not what is the part number from EBS?
It looks like it might be: POR024395

??

Kirk

WHen I talked to EBS I just said "Give me the green ones not the blue ones" and Troy knew exactly what I meant. Of course then I change my gasket set from the stock one to the Wrightwood Racing set which is entirely Viton... ;-)

Cheers,

Mike

Would like advice on the installation of the Transmission Shift Rod seal. I installed a new one last year and its leaking again after 2000 miles. Its a &*% to get out with the trans in the car. Should a sealant be used on this seal?

Is it leaking between the seal and the shaft or the seal and the transmission case? Maybe you have too much slop in your shift rod and the seal can't keep up? If its between the case/seal then you have a few options including using some Curil-T or other sealer when you drive the seal in..

Cheers,

Mike

Don't use the blue thru-bolt o-rings for NUTTIN'. I used them for my 964 3.6L but apparently was not "careful" enough and shredded a few of them. Always go with green here unless you don't make mistakes or are kind of lucky - cheap insurance. Lube them with something (I used good old red grease, others have used ATF) and for GODS SAKE DON'T LET THE BOLT TURN WHEN YOU'RE TURNING THE NUT SIDE (this has a tendency to tear the o-ring and I'm deathly afraid 1 or 2 of mine are going to weep now).

Might want to take a very fine dremmel bit and unsharpen the holes where those o-rings slide into - mind the metal bits though. I would have done this if I wasn't already out of patience by that point.

I did the following, mostly following Henry's method:
1104 - case perimiter, cam housing to heads
1211 - #8 nose bearing, attempted it with power steering pump around the o-ring didn't work out
574 - journal webs
Curil-T - all seals and gaskets - NOTE - the round orange seals WILL work themselves out unless you put a VERY VERY thin coat on.
Red Grease - anything rubber - except the #8 nose

We'll soon see how it all worked out...

Outer Case Halves: Threebond 1104

Bearing Saddle Surfaces: Loctite 574

#8 Bearing (balancer end) O-Ring: Threebond 1211

Case Thru Bolts: Dow Corning 111 on Green Viton O-Rings

Flywheel Seal: Curil-T

Balancer Seal: Curil-T

Intermediate Shaft Cover to Case: ThreeBond 1211

Oil Breather Cover to Case: ThreeBond 1211

Cylinders to Case: Curil K-2 or ThreeBond 1211

Cam Towers to Cylinder Heads: Threebond 1104

Cam Chain Housings to Case: Threebond 1104

Cam Chain Housings to Cam Towers: Threebond 1104

Cam Chain Housing Cover to Cam Chain Housing: Threebond 1104

Gaskets: Thin coat of Loctite 574

Most Popular solutions for sealing each item above

Thanks a lot folks, I really appreciate the feedback!

Really have enjoyed all the comments on sealant favorites, and came away with a couple of questions........sorry to drag out the thread, but then it really is a good one.

Can someone tell me more about Threebond 1104? Is it an anaerobic? On the Threebond site the ll00 series products are mostly acrylic resin based, but I couldn't actually find a 1104 listed. It isn't RTV is it? Exactly why do most of you prefer this to the Loctite 574 for the outer case flange sealant.

Recently I have been exposed to considerable hype about the new sealant being used by GM on all their aluminum engine cases. The product is GM Assembly Adhesive number 1#12346141. Apparently GM developed the stuff specifically for Aluminum cases and it is all they use. I have a tube of it here on the desk and cannot imagine how we could use it on the main case, since it instructs to apply and perform final bonding within 5 minutes. But while I don't believe I could ever achieve that with an engine case, it certainly could be useful elsewhere, chain housings and etc. I is just new to me and I wonder whether any of you have experience with it.

James

I've used 1211 on the flywheel seal by mistake..#@$# instead of Curil T. Does anyone see a problem in leaving it or do I need to remove the crank and redo the whole operation.

Thanks!

I think you will be fine, provided that the seal stays in place after initial curing. When I used curil T on my pulley seal, the seal popped out. I now install pulley and flywheel seals dry.

Michel

The only good use I have found for the blue case o-rings is to use on the plug wires to identify the lower set of wires on a twin plug engine. I slipped one on the plug end before I put the boot on and used moroso heat shrink cylinder id numbers and did the same at the distributor end. Blue o-ring = bottom plug. Hows that for simple. If I could just figure out a way to put the cyl # on the o-ring. I will post pics when the proper time comes and I can figure out how to get the pictures to load. $hitty camera?http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/...s/beerchug.gif

1211 on the flywheel seal will not hurt but in turn will not help.
The crank and flywheel seal should be installed dry .
There is no need to glue them. Non hardening glues ( Curil T, Curil K2, Gaska Synch and Aviation Permatex) used for this application can promote squeeze out.
A touch of 1211 at the case seam behind the seal is a technique that has surfaced of late but I have not added this to my method of sealing.

Anybody used 573 instead of 574?

Just wanted to provide an update: nearing 10,000 miles on my rebuild (see my sealing methods on page 1 of this thread) and no leaks! Knock on a large plank o' Porsche wood, that this continues! I should also add that the red silicone (re-usable) valve cover gaskets have been worth their weight in gold as I've had my covers on and off 1,000,000,000,000 times and they still seal perfectly!

The only issue I encountered were a few rocker shafts that "walked", and even with the RSR seals, leaked until I finally got them right. I attribute this to not having things dry enough (oil free) when I installed them...oil them after they're torqued.

Congrats, sand_man! Excellent work!

Is this where they go?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1187039830.jpg

That is a very nice graphic. The locations for glue placement are similar to the way we do it accept here is no reason to glue the flywheel seal. In over 400 rebuilds and even more tear downs I have never seen a properly installed flywheel seal leak around the perimeter.
We also glue the entire # 8 saddle with a very thin coat of TB 1211.
We reserve the Curil T for base cooper gaskets.

Thanks Henry. I keep repeating your mantra, "Four Glues Equal No Leaks."

I really REALLY do not recommend putting Curil-T on the nose or flywheel seal. Reason being it does not cure and therefore acts as a lubricant. Early in my engine building days I literally watched these seals slowly squeeze out of the bores while the new engine was sitting on the stand. I install them all dry now. If I really had a question about the sealing (such as a small scratch in the bore), i might put a hair-thin bit of hi-temp silicone on it. I've only had to do that once!

When you guys are using the threebond, is this instead of the gaskets or spread on the gaskets like you would with Loctite 574?

P.S. I just sealed up my case, and this thread was a HUGE help. Especially Johns photo diagram, great idea John!

Well, you know what they say about a picture being worth a thousand words....thanks for the graphic John.

On the flywheel seal, I replaced mine "from the outside in" when I did my clutch a couple of years ago, which is a common "WYIT" item, I believe. Did it dry, and had no leaks. So, I see no reason why you'd need to do it on a nice clean rebuild. I can vividly see in my mind's eye how a non-curing sealant would just provide the lube needed to walk that sucker out!

I actually used a thin coating of 574 on most of my "paper" gaskets (chain covers, cam housing to case, oil breather cover, et.). I just thinly smeared it over the entire gasket, front and back with my fingers.

I would imagine that the ThreeBond would accomplish the same thing...but would be used in conjunction with the gasket.

So in answer to your question, apply to the gasket.