Thanx Chris,

I pity anyone trying to view this thread on dialup. I got a little 'picture happy on the last few posts. :)

Kirk

I received the latest pile of parts from porsche this week, which allowed me to get the oil system back in one piece.

I installed new aluminum sealing rings on the oil filter housing and the connections for the oil cooler, and then I put the new oil lines in from the cooler to the thermostat, and then the oil reservoir and the pile of hoses related to it.

Kirkhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159237207.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159237219.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159237232.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159237244.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159237255.jpg

The next step for the motor was to install the power steering

1. Replace O-ring and seal on power steering casing. The O-ring got some Dow corning 111 on it.
2. The left rear tin is installed and then the power steering pump and housing are pushed into place on the left cam shaft
3. PLace the cam shaft holding tool on the front of the camshaft (At the timing chain) and then bolt on the power steering sprocket with the belt in place. The cam shaft tool lets you hold everything steady while you torque it. Then mount the small silver cover in place. Remember to put the standoff in the hole of the small silver cover.
4. Next mount the secondary exhaust bracket on the two standoffs, bolt on the second small piece of rear tin, and the plastic cover at the top of the assembly.

Kirk

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159237607.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159237629.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159237649.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159237669.jpg

The next steps need to be done in order, or you get to redo them...

At this point the right side flywheel tin can get mounted with the wires for the flywheel sensor and temperature sensor installed and the left and right side tin.

Then the timing covers can be installed. I used dow corning 111 lube on the rubber bushings in the screws, and I used a small amount of Threebond 1104 on the cover and engine mating surface for the gasket.

The small cap at the front of the motor also got a new viton O-ring with dow corning 111 on it.

Then the belt break sensor is installed, followed by the air conditioning bracket and the flywheel. The a/c bracket is not bolted down at this point because it needs to be loose to allow the fan shroud on top of the motor room to fit in place. (And because the motor mounts still have to go on) :)

Kirk
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159238349.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159238371.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159238388.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159238414.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159238431.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159238449.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159238563.jpg

(More images)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159238852.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159238873.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159238888.jpg

The wiring harness is installed from the back of the engine, with its rubber bung pushed into the slot in the flywheel side engine tin.

The plastic upper shroud is put in place, and the wiring to the alternator is put through it. There are two ground wires that need to be attached at the top of the engine.

Then the wires for the knock sensors can be pulled though the shroud.

The alternator wires can then be attached and the alternator strapped down.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239036.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239056.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239072.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239092.jpg

Now the front engine tin and engine mount can be installed, bolting down the a/c bracket at the same time.

Then the engine is rotated over and the oil line to the oil filter is installed, followed by the exhaust headers. (remember to never sieze the studs and put the exhaust gaskets in place)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239399.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239441.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239470.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239486.jpg

The intakes and fuel rails can go on next. The injectors should have new o-rings (with o-ring lube) installed on them. It is almost impossible to describe the placement of all of these pieces for the injection system. Make sure you take lots of pictures before dissassembly.

I updated my car with the newer plastic manifolds and throttle body at the same time.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239624.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239642.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239663.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239680.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239703.jpg

Before placing the manifold assembly on the engine, install the cruise control unit.
The newer plastic manifolds have different pipiing and holders than the older aluminum intakes.

I also installed a cone air filter assembly. This came with a small L-Bracket that I couldn't find any use for. As best I could tell the manufacturer expected the filter and air flow sensor to just rest on top of the engine and vibrate.

I made up an aluminum bracket to secure it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239872.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239901.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239921.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239941.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239960.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159239977.jpg

Up to this point I had been avoiding setting the valve lash because I am still missing one of the lock nuts for the adjusters. But I decided to do all of them but #5 intake so I could keep going. In some of the pictures you may see the cup pipe, cat bypass and parts of the heat exchangers installed. This was a mistake on my part because:

1. before installing the hear exchanger piping the fiber shrouds need to be installed
2. it is barely posssible to install the plugs past the cat bypass, and it is not possible to put the plug wire into cylinder #1 lower with the cat bypass and Imagine auto valve covers installed.

The valve lash is done in firing order, beginning with number 1, set the lash on the intake & exhaust rockers to .1mm and then rotate the engine 120 deg and do the next cylinder (6), etc. When you rotate the engine 120, there is a mark that will be aligned on the Z1 spot.

The is a good time to remove any paper towels you have pluigging the oil return tube holes. It would suck to forget about them.

When the valves are all adjusted, you can install the valve covers, plugs and put the plug wires in place.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240179.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240397.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240411.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240429.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240451.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240465.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240479.jpg

Porsche phoned and told me my valve adjuster lock nut was in, so I got the #5 intake valve adjusted and the valve cover on the engine.

Then I rolled the engine over and installed the fiber shields, heat exchanger pipes and the rest of the exhaust.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240675.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240688.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240702.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240717.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240728.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240743.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240756.jpg

At this point the motor is complete.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240976.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240988.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159240999.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241010.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241022.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241036.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241052.jpg

Now on to the reason I dropped the motor in the first place.
*****CLUTCH REPLACEMENT*****

The following are a set of pictures showing the installation of the throwout bearing and associated components on the pressure plate.

**NOTE: The first thing to go on is the two spacers. In this photo it is difficult to see there are actually two spacers on top of each other being installed.

Kirkhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241231.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241246.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241263.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241278.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241292.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241306.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241317.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241328.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241339.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241351.jpg

Next I replaced the bearings for the throwout lever, and lined up all the parts for tomorrow when I will be installing the pressure plate and mating the transmission to the engine.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241475.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241488.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241501.jpg

With lots of help I placed the engine on the floor. I bolted the pressure plate on at 18 ft/lbs, applied the optimoly grease to the appropriate spots and bolted the trans to the engine, along with the starter.

Then we lifted the engine & tranny onto my atv jack and wheeled it under the car.

After the usual amount of fighting, the engine and tranny were bolted up on their mounts.

Still no studs for the rear wheels though.... Grr.

Kirkhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241860.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241880.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241899.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241937.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241960.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159241983.jpg

Loaded the car up with fluids and turned it over.
The oil pressure looks good.

Put the DME relay in and tried to start it, but there is no spark.

I connected a KTS300 (hammer) to it, but it only seems to be finding the CCU and PDAS. Nothing about the DME. (I am not a hammer expert, but I think it should be in the list after I connect and tell it to go looking for installed items)

At the DME connector:
Pins 24-18 have 13.7 V with key off
pins 24-37 have 12.7 volts with key on
pins 47-48 speed ref sensor input shows a signal > 3v p-p

Now I am at a loss. Car should start. But has no spark.

Kirk

Here is how far I have gotten diagnosing the problem with no spark.

-I have the coil closest to the firewall (front of car) plugged into the primary upper distributor.

-All fuses in the car are good (front fuse box and rear fuse box next to coils)

-Bosche hammer does not see the DME. But I am not sure if it ever did. And I think there is some precedence where the hammer would not talk to the DME, but the car ran fine.

-All wiring plugged in, including the two big connectors with the pins, distributor, coil plugs, etc.

-checked distributor wiring. The red wire from the hall effect goes to (+), black wire to (-)

-DME is receiving battery power, and power through the DME relay with the ignition switched on.

Sadly I leave town for the next four days, so it looks like this car wont be starting this weekend.



A couple of pics.

Scope trace of signal from flywheel sensor.
Some pics of left side of engine compartment.
(O2 wire is not connected on these)


All suggestions welcome!



Sigh

Kirkhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159242403.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159242432.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159242450.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159242463.jpg

Update: Plugged the DME into another 964, (The only other one I know of in my area) and it wouldn't start. So I guess the next step is to either replace or repair mine.

Sigh.

Kirk

Did you confirm that the fuel pump comes on when you crank. That will tell you that the DME see's the flywheel sensor picking up the rotating flywheel?

Next, make sure you get a trigger signal to the ignitors. You can trigger them manually. The WSM tells you how. Keep us posted.

Ingo

Update:

Ok I purchased another DME from an auto wrecker in Toronto, and it arrived this week.
I installed it and the car starter almost immediately. Yay.

I have no idea why the old DME died.

I spent the weekend doing the initial breakin on the engine, and so far its looking pretty good. There is an oil leak from somewhere around the thermostat housing, an oil leak from the oil tank level sensor (Not sure why, maybe it was always leaking there. I never had it out) and initially there was a leak from the power steering pump seal, but it may have seated itself and stopped. Time will tell.

I have put about 200 km on the car so far.

The clutch works fine, no problems there. I don't notice alot of difference between the DMF and the LWF. The idle is still slightly unstable despite the system adaptation using the hammer.

Engine feels a little rough to me, and a bit boggy at lower RPMs. I can't decided whether it feels rough because of the new solid engine mounts or because of a running problem.

With the hammer attached, I can't find anything that looks out of place. All the sensors are reading ok, and changing as you would expect. The idle and WOT switches are making, O2 sensor is reading, etc. Knock numbers are in the 0-20 range when you do the knock check. Both coils are firing and the car will run on either distributor.

I have to fix the leak at the oil thermostat before I do much more driving. So I will probably get to that in the morning.

The exhaust with the cat bypass and cup pipe is a little loud, but not too outrageous.

Overall things are going pretty well, except for the impression I have that the engine is hesitating/crossfiring/missing at idle & low revs. Power seems a little off to me, but its hard to judge during breakin.


Kirk

Kirk - It will sound crazy basic, but check carefully the plug wire ends connected to the distributor. Your boggy and rough symptoms sound like a mis-matched cap and wire/cylinder issue.
Cheers,
Chris

Chris,

I was thinking the same thing, its easy to sometimes make a small error when you are dealing with all of the issues around a rebuild.

I've been a little tight for time so far this week but I double checked the following:

1. Plug wires & firing order are correct for both distributors

2. Set the engine to Z1 mark, and pulled both distributor caps to double check that the distributors were as closely aligned to #1 as the distributor gears will allow, and that both the primary & secondary are properly aligned. (Never hurts to double check!)

3. Let the engine idle for a bit and sprayed the plug wires with a little water to make sure there was no arcing. I didn't see any problems.

We have been getting some nasty weather here the last couple of days, and I haven't pulled off the rocker panel to get at the oil lines and see where my oil leak is coming from, so I havent done any more test drives yet. (There was a snow last night so its a skating rink outside)

Jason on rennlist mentioned that the knock check should read zero. On my next test drive, I will do another check of this with the hammer to see what numbers mine is reading. (Snow should be dried up here in a day or two)


Kirk

Kirk,
You can also measure resistance across the plug wires. They should be 2.8kohms to 3.0kohms, I think.

Another quick test would be to disconnect and ground out one of the coil electrodes at a time and see if it changes the way the engine runs / revs. It may isolate a problem with one cylinder, easier.

I read through most of the thread, but am not sure: did you do anything to the injectors? Any chance one isn't spraying properly or has a weak pattern?

You could always do a quick compression test. Removing the bottom plugs is pretty quick.

You did a beautiful job, by the way!

Doug

Kirk,
After a few miles on the engine, I hope it as good as it looked to be.
One of the mods you added was a set of, what appears to be aftermarket, exhaust valve covers. Was that done for show or to correct a leakage issue? If the latter, did it work? If done for the former - oh yes, they look nice.
Also, I noticed along the way that you were able to replace the flexible heat shield surrounding that short, flex section of the oil line, which connects engine return oil to filter. Pelican has informed me recently that this item is no longer available from any source they know of. Where did you get yours? Mustn't have that long back, as it looks in the photo to be new.
Not only was it a well thought-out project and one I hope you are proud of; but each one of us other 964 owners owe you a lot for sharing the experience as you did. Please add my name to those members already expressing sincere gratitude for the time and effort. Well done!
James

"Firesleeve" or "FireJacket" are common names for it, and is available through most race-parts companies like Pegasus or Coleman. I usually buy it from an aircraft parts supplier like Aircraft Spruce and Specialy Co in large bulk but you can probably get it cheaper in smaller lengths from Coleman or the like.

Thanks for the info Adam, I have now located it in the Aircraft Spruce catalog.

James,

The shield for the oil line was ordered from Sunset Porsche. They seemed to have no problem getting it. On the 89/90 964s the valve covers are magnesium. They tend to warp easily and leak. I replaced the lowers with the Billet aluminum ones to solve the problem. (Oh ya and because they looked cool. :) )

Kirk

I put another 200km on the car yesterday. The engine runs well but still feels boggy, particularly at lower rpms.

I hooked up the bosche hammer and it is still showing some knock occurring.

I ran the knock test about 10 times under varied driving and I am getting numbers between 0-8 knocks per 10000.

The injectors I left untouched except for changing the O-rings on them.
Any ideas? How do I isolate which cylinder is knocking?


Here is what I know:

I know its not due to high compression on the engine.
I know the dual distrubtor belt is ok, properly aligned and that both distributors are firing
I know the distributor timing is correctly aligned at the Z1 mark.
I know the distrubtors are both wired correctly to the right cylinders
I know the gasoline is fresh 91 Octane super unleaded
The rotors/caps/plugs were all replaced at rebuild time.

I don't believe it is due to cross firing in the plug wires. Spraying them with water caused no difference I could detect.

The changes I made to the engine at rebuild time were:
1. Cone filter
2. Cat bypass (with O2 sensor)
3. Cup Pipe
4. Updated manifolds from aluminum, to later plastic style


So what else could it be?

Here are the things I can think of:
1. There might be an aftermarket chip in the replacement DME I bought
2. An injector could be having issues causing a cylinder to run lean? (But wouldnt that cause a higher knock value?)

Anything else anyone can think of?

Kirk

Can the Hammer do a cylinder drop test? I used an old generic Bosch tester from the early 90s that would do that. That test could make sure things are working equally across the cylinders.

Maybe one of your knock sensors and is causing a problem and issuing false possitives? This could cause the computer to retard timing, which could cause the "boggy" feeling.
OR
I would think if an injector were having a flow issue, it could cause a lean condition which may contribute to a knock in a given cylinder. Maybe the cylinder drop test could provide some data as to which injector to focus on.

I have a Steve Wong chip for my '95 engine and the difference was dramatic, while remaining conservative with regards to timing, etc.
Doug

kirk,
Thanks for your reply. I have already ordered a length of Aeroquip fire sleeve from Pegasus. The largest ID I could find was 1.5 inch, and that will be tight. May not be able to slip it over the hose end fittings without damage. In that event I shall look to Sunset Porsche, as you suggest.
Yes, one of my exhaust valve covers has leaked too, in spite of carefully cleaning the surfaces and torquing to spec. Might I inquire just where you sourced those billet aluminum specimens. I only ever see then at 10k valve adjustments so don't care much about looks. Also the stock units have those nice clips for spark wires, so have been thinking of taking both of them over for surface grinding to level. Maybe the aluminum covers are a better bet in the long run. Do you coat the formed rubber gaskets with ThreeBond 1211, as I noticed you did on the chain covers? I have always put them in dry. Or does the billet cover use different gaskets?
Sorry for all the questions, when you are so focused on the knock issue, but you seem to have already worked out this leaking valve cover issue.
James

James,

All questions are welcome. I know plenty of people took time to answer mine!
The valve covers are from Imagine Auto, ( www.imagineauto.com ) they come with gaskets. I installed mine dry. I was thinking about drilling holes, and them tapping them to allow installation of the spark plug wire clips, but I was getting a little tired of engine work near the end and I didn't bother. I might do it when I check the valve lash at the 1000km mark. If your car is an 89/90 then you could always just replace the lowers with the 91+ aluminum valve covers on the bottom. Not as shiney, but I think they leaked alot less.

Doug,
I don't think the hammer can do that, but I wonder if I wouldnt get the same results from pulling the injector wires individually and seeing when the knock stops? I am trying to figure out in my head whether that would cause any motor problems or not.

Tomorrow I might open up the DME and make sure it doesnt have a chip in it that is setup for a higher octane gas than I am using. ( 91 octane is about the best I can get around here)

Kirk

Kirk, did you receive my PM's? I never saw an answer.

Regarding the knocking I would diconnect the injectors to one cylinder at a time and check if this makes a difference. I do see some knocking on my 3.6 fresh rebuilt with a stock chip but I know this is most likely due to the plugs being due for a change after 15k. It mostly happens when the engine is hot and I floor it at 3.5k RPM. The hammer can not do the drop test. It will show the actual spark advance though. This could be helpful to determine whether your chip is stock. What model number does the hammer read from the Motronic?

BTW, your knock count is well within Porsche's specification. As long as the adaptive knock control reduces the advance you should be fine.

Cheers,
Ingo

OK,

I removed the DME and opened it up to check the chip.
The chip is I believe the porsche factory one. Its numbered #1267355769
Correct? The DME had been opened previously.

I am not sure how well the chip from an '89 car is going to handle the heavier DMF flywheel to stabilize idle. (My car had its transmission replaced early in its history from the 89 SMF type to a later style DMF) But thats a different matter.

Any other ideas about what could be causing occasional detonation?

It snowed here again and the streets are a mess. So I haven't pulled the car out for any more test runs.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1161363096.jpg


Kirk

"Why does the factory repair manual say that you should buy new microencapsulated bolts for the knock sensors? Whats wrong with the old bolts and some locktite?"

Just to revisit this issue in your rebuild, you may be interested to know that Pelican, our host company, have been unable to obtain the microencapsulated bolts anyway. It would appear that locktite on the old bolts is the best approach for sure.
James

Kirk, yes, this is a stock Bosch chip. The hammer should be able to read out the code base number when it talks to the DME. It's a number like this: 964 618 124 0X where X is 0 - 4. This number is stored in the last part of the chip and tells you which code version the chip is. 03 is the most comon. BTW: If it is the original chip this number matches the part number on the outside sticker.

ingo

UPDATE:

I have now put about 1000km on the car, and so far it is running quite well.
I still get some low knock numbers from the Bosch hammer. I havent found a reason for it yet.

I changed the oil twice with regular 20W50 DINO Oil and now I am running Mobil 1 5W50 synthetic.

I had oil leaks on one of the oil lines at the thermostat housing and from the oil reservoir level sensor. Both of which I fixed on the last oil change, so for right now it looks like everything is dry.

There was some minor dripping from the cam shaft seal at the power steering pump, but it stopped as soon as the seal seated itself.

I also managed to get the longer wheel studs on the rear wheels with a little wider spacer.

Now i'm bored. I wish I had enough cash to get the bodywork done this winter. I want my car to be a widebody.


Kirk

If you are really looking for something to do...
 

Try this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169698&highlight=964+va rioram

You could get started using this...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AVR I&viewitem=&item=230051097253&rd=1,1

How is the powder coating, especially for the engine tray, holding up? I'm thinking about doing that, too.

As far as I can see the powder coating is holding up very well. I would recommend doing it.

I will be dropping my motor again soon to install a supercharger. I'll have a better chance to assess how well everything worked out then.


Kirk

bookmarked for later