964 3.6 rebuild
 

This weekend I finally made some headyway on my rebuild so I thought I would post some pics, etc.

I originally dropped the engine because the clutch was giving me problems and there was too many oil leaks to count.

-In this rebuild I am going to remove the RS lightweight flywheel and go to a dual mass flywheel.
-I am replacing my 1989 pistons & cylinders with late model 1994 pistons & cylinders that have the provision for the sealing ring
- New phosporous-bronze valve guides and new Intake & exhaust valves to correct the damage from a previously done top end rebuild.
-New valve springs
-Machine my 1989 heads to accept the sealing rings
-ARP rod bolts
-Regrind cams (lobes had pitting)
-Rebush rocker arms
-Rebush rods

(and some other stuff, but its late...)

Here are some pics of the engine when it came out:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151301222.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151301240.jpg

The first thing I did was to mount the crankshaft on the flywheel and clean it to remove any residue from the micropolishing of the journals. (Used brake clean with compressed air to blow out all the oil passages)

Then I cleaned the rods as well, to remove any machining / shipping debris.

Next I measured the crankshaft main and rod bearing journals to ensure they were on spec. (All of them came up within limits for standard bearings)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151301361.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151301381.jpg

I checked the bearing clearances on all the rods using plastigage.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151301585.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151301608.jpg

Then I recleaned the rods, crank and bearings with alchohol to do the real installation.
The rod bolt threads got arp lubricant and liqui moly was used for rebuild grease on the bearings.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151301743.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151301772.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151301845.jpg

Next I did the final prep of the two case halves and setup all the required tools and parts as per Waynes book:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151302023.jpg
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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151302099.jpg

The intermediate shaft bearing shells were placed in the case and the #8 nose bearing seal and O-ring were installed. I used a little threebond 1211 here to ensure it would seal well.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151302292.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151302326.jpg

Nice Kirk, I hope to be building up one of these soon.

I setup the crankshaft ready for install, with the RMS in place. However I wish i had left the RMS off, It ended up squeezing out of the case halves before I could get the case torqued up, and my engine holder doesn't permit alot of room to put it back in. I will have to take the engine off the stand to reinstall it later.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151302624.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151302684.jpg

I used pieces of sheet metal bent as per the book to hold the pistions & timing chain straight up for the case assembly.
For the case perimeter I used threebond 1104 and for the webs I used locktite 574.
I wish I had more pics of this step, but the threebond tacks up pretty fast and I didn't have time to grab the camera.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151302805.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151302854.jpg

There is very few pictures of the case assembly stage, as all available hands were guiding the case halves together, and then securing the perimeter nuts.

I used the cap from a sharpie as a tool to push the case throughbolt O-rings over the threads. It worked great. (Thanx axl911) I applied plenty of dow corning 111 to the through bolt o-rings.

One mistake I made was I should have had these throughbolts ready to go with the O-rings already gooped up on them.

When the case leaks like a sieve I will get it right on the reseal...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151303074.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151303094.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151303119.jpg

And finally the case halves assembled:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151303168.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151303232.jpg

Sadly I work out of town during the week, so now I get to spend the next five days thinking about all the things that could have gone wrong before I can continue on with the assembly.

We really have to get Wayne to update his book with all the relevant differences for the 3.6l engines. There is so many being rebuilt now that they are 17 years old.

Anyways, everyone feel free to comment on any horrifc errors you see from the pics. :)

Kirk

A couple of questions:
1. Why doesn't deck height seem to matter on a 3.6? On the previous 911 engines they had spacers etc, but I see no mention of this for the 3.6 motors?
2. Why does the factory repair manual say that you should buy new microencapsulated bolts for the knock sensors? Whats wrong with the old bolts and some locktite?

Thanx
Kirk

Yeah baby.... Another 3.6 rebuild. I also plan to tear into my 3.6 before I put it into my 72 and these treads help ALOT.Thanks for posting.

A few questions
1-What special tools did you have to go out and buy or can you get most of the tools at a local auto parts store?

2- was the 3.6 much harder than a older air cooled motor?

3- I have the hydraulic valves.... Do you think thay are much harder to work with?

4- Dont you have to get the case faces shaved? Or is that not a concers with the 3.6?


Now to try to answer your questions.... For the knock sensor bolts, I think the old ones should be just fine . As for the deck height... Maybe the stronger 3.6 case does not have any problems with sag, maybe .

I added a .019" shim to both sides as all my heads had been machined to match. Jerry Woods made the two shims for me. Deck height is important.

Herman,
The only "special" tools that I needed for my 90 C2 rebuild were:

Cam Holder Tool
Engine Stand (adapter)
Head Nut/Flywheel Bolt Socket (triple square)
Z Block to hold Dial Indicator for Timing
Crank Pulley Removal Tool (bolt shaped tool)
1/4 drive Short Allen Socket for Rocker Arm Bolts (or shorten a regular length)

I can't think of any other special tools. You need 2 14mm 12 point sockets to remove the through bolts...... I didn't have 2 in 12 point. I do now though. (Oil line wrenches are needed, but they should be available locally)

-Eric
90 C2

Great writeup! Hope to be there soon with my own reassembly.

Hi Kirk,

I noticed you're putting back on a DMFW. Is there something you don't like about the LW flywheel?

Keep up the great pics and descriptions.

(P.S. My parents are from Winnepeg originally. Nice winters out there. :) )

Great pics and tech info!! Looks very professional, keep it coming!!

One of the reasons I dropped the engine was because of clutch problems. (Mostly due to oil leaking on the flywheel it would seem)

I decided to go back to the dual mass flywheel because I found the stalling issues with the LWF to be irritating. Particularly with the A/C on. I bought my car with the LWF so i'll have to see if like having the heavier dmf or not. If I decide I don't like it I will put the RS setup back in.

As for the pictures, I couldn't think of a better way to have one of the experts on here catch my mistakes. :) Cheap insurance against an oopsie!

Kirk

the motors are pretty straight forward in rebuilding. i've rebuilt quite a handful of 3.6's and a few 3.3 turbo's including my '91 965.

not a whole lot of really special tools. no need for the special cam crowsfoot and socket for the cams. few misc 12 point sockets. the spin on cylinder holders that keep the cylinders from falling off while tuning the motor over are handy, but can be made from brass/aluminum tubing and an old head nut if you're in a pinch. the sheet metal timing chain and rod holders are a great help if you don't have an extra set of hands around.

definitely get the z block dial indicator adaptor. saves a migrane in adjusting the cams

one tool that some beginners will find a great help are standard large size rubber bands. i've heard of people flipping the assembled case over in the engine stand hand having the expose loose rods bang around in the spigots, causing dents and whatnot in the spigot holes that can cause future problems down the road or even prevent the cylinders from fitting correctly. just pass clean rubber bands through the small rod ends and loop them over the headstuds in an "X" pattern to support the rod until you can get the piston/cylinder assemblies on. very cheap insurance......

I think light weight flywheels are a waste on a street car. They cause more issues than you think they help. You need torque and smoothness on the street.

Back in the muscle car days, you would actually install a heavier flywheel in small dispacement engines to keep the rpm's up between shifts. They made the cars faster believe it or not.

I received the first batch of parts back from the powder coater today. I had the engine tin done in gloss black, and the exhaust in high heat grey. (except for the new cup pipe and the back piece of the heat exchanger which I left silver)

The next batch of parts which will be red got sent in, and a pile of small parts that will get zinc dichromite(ate?)

Here are a couple pics.

Kirk
(I liked how the exhuast came out. I know it won't last long, but humour me. :) )http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151730296.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151730312.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151730327.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151730351.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151730374.jpg

Impressive and after reading Waynes book 100 times your pics seem fine.

Inspiration to us that work out of town. :)

Regards,

I will have to agree 100% with Asphalt, recently, I'm taking off more light weight flywheels, than installing them!, for exactly the same issues mentioned, whenever possible try to use the 993TT type, much stronger unit than the N/A types, (same unit as the 996TT, 996GT2's, & 996Gt3's), if you notice it, they are used on the GT3's, and that is a quick reving engine, cheers, Ant.

I got a couple of things done today.
I strung some elastics through the rods and rotated the engine a couple times to see how it felt.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151818442.jpg

The elastics worked better than I thought they would at keeping the rods straight, so they wouldn't catch on the engine casing.

I was going to check deck height today, but I couldn't find anything that I could use to squish between the piston/head, and since its Canada Day everything was closed.

So instead I took the engine off the engine stand and put the RMS in. I tried a second time to put in the one that came with my wrightwood racing gasket set , but it kept squeezing out, and eventually it got a rip in it, so instead I put a factory porsche one in. I was much happier with the fit of the black porsche seal. It was tight, and it went in and stayed in.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151818506.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151818523.jpg

Then I put the dual mass flywheel on, and cross torqued the bolts to 63 ft lbs with locktite. (No laughing at my flywheel lock. )
I was confused at first with the flywheel because I had a washer and spring washer, that I couldn't fit on the flywheel no matter what I tried, after about an hour I noticed a reference in PET that mentioned they were only used on the earlier DMFs and not the LUKs. (Thanks to kevin for verifying that for me).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151818660.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151818697.jpg

Incidentally it was weird feeling the DMF rotate and spring back as I torqued the bolts. I have only ever put on solid flywheels before.

Kirk

DECK HEIGHT
 

I had to work most of today, but I managed to check the deck height on cylinders 1 & 4 tonight.

I temporarily installed pistons 1 & 4 and their cylinders. Then I placed some 3mm solder on the top of each piston dome and bolted the heads on at 23 ft/lbs.
I rotated the engine to crush the solder, and checked the clearance using a caliper.

The deck height appears to be 1.45mm - 1.55mm

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151907054.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151907069.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151907085.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151907099.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151907110.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151907124.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151907134.jpg

I think you have the cyls. upside down, cheers, Ant.

Funny but true. I shouldn't work on things when its late!
Lucky I was just checking deck height and not installing them or I would be awfully upset today! :)

Cheers,
Kirk

Deck Height **EDITED**
 

Ok I had to redo the deck height because I wasn't happy with the measurements I did. So I went back and did them over:
(The edge of the cylinder has the tightest tolerance, but the solder tends to get a lip where it crushes into the gap along the cylinder wall)

Lesson: Don't work on your engine when you are over tired. Too many mistakes get made.

I temporarily installed pistons 1 & 4 and their cylinders. Then I placed some 3mm solder on the top of each piston dome in line with the crank shaft and bolted the heads on at 23 ft/lbs.
I rotated the engine to crush the solder, and checked the width of the crushed solder using a caliper. This measures the clearance between the piston and the head. (Deck Height -sorta)

The edge of the piston has the tightest clearance
The deck height measured is .90mm to 1.03mm

I consulted with Steve Weiner of Rennsport systems. (Nice guy and very helpful)

So my deck height is in the correct range.
Kirk

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151975306.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151975327.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151975347.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151975364.jpg

Thanks Kirk - that was a helpful tip on the location to measure.

Nice work. Just one question: Why did you replace the RS flywheel with a stock wheel? Were you unhappy with the lighter wheel?

Cheers,
Ingo

One of the reasons I dropped the engine was because of clutch problems. (Mostly due to oil leaking on the flywheel it would seem)

I decided to go back to the dual mass flywheel because I found the stalling issues with the LWF to be irritating. Particularly with the A/C on. I bought my car with the LWF so i'll have to see if like having the heavier dmf or not. If I decide I don't like it I will put the RS setup back in.

Kirk

All you need is a computer chip to correct the idle and idle drop , and you should be good to go. I would'nt put that heavy nasty flywheel in .

It will dull enging responce and slow your shifts also...Heavy=no no.

Great solder idea. So all you have to do is check 2 cylinders?
What would you do if 1 was no in spec? Just wondering.

Piston?cylinder Install
 

I had to work this weekend, but I made a little engine progress. I installed the pistions & cylinders.

I starting at piston #1 and worked around the engine clockwise 1-2-3-6-5-4

STEPS:
-Cover openings around the piston you are not working on with cellophane, place a clean lint free cloth around the rod you will be working on. (Less chance of dropping the circlip into the engine)

-Setup rings on piston. With intake valve at Noon, put first ring at 9 Oclock, 2nd ring at 3 Oclock, oil ring at 12 Oclock and put piston into cylinder from bottom.

-Put Threebond 1211 around perimeter of cylinder and place green viton O-ring in place.

-Put wrist pin in place, about 2 mm past inside endge of piston

-Wipe down case spigot with alcohol, and put rebuild lube on small end of rod
bushing.

-Put piston/cylinder in place and tap wrist pin into position

-Put circlip into position with opening at about 11 Oclock, place small screwdriver into 3Oclock gap, lever the circlip inwards and press into place with thumb.

-Gently tap/push cylinder down and hold in place with tool.

Kirk
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152491082.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152491109.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152491143.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152491168.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152491192.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152491213.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152491249.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1152491288.jpg

Herman,

Even with a chip to correct the problem, my engine still has stalling issues. Alot of people are taking out LWFs for this reason. The 964s just arent happy with a 12lb flywheel. Either you tolerate the stalling and oscillating idle, or you give up and go back to the DMF.


Kirk

Krik - looks like you installed the pistons "dry" - did you lube the cylinder at all?

Good progress!

I too had a LWF in a 964 with a chip that was supposed to correct the stalling. It would stall every once in a while, I lived with it, but I can see how it can frustrate folks.

Kirk, I am picking up the gauge at Greyhound tomorrow, check you paypal account then for the deposit!

Looks like you are doing some very nice work on your motor. Great thread and pics as well, it is opening up some good discussion.

Cheers

What you need is a chip and a slight adjustment of the AFM air bypass screw. Together this will take care of the stalling for good given that you idle control valve is operting properly and you have no other leaks in the intake.

Ingo

Chris,

The pistons were lubed up with oil, You just can't see it in the pictures. (maybe I should have added that to the steps.) :)

Ingo,
I have read about adjusting the afm screw, also people have mentioned doing an idle adapt with a hammer to help the problem. There was alot of discussion about this on Rennlist, but as far as I could tell nobody was getting consistent results from any of the fixes. I was having all the other classic 964 clutch problems, low pedal, poor disengagement, heavy pedal, and on top of that stalling when the a/c was on.
So when I went in to investigate where the problems were coming from my solution was to bring the car back to the stock setup.
Once the engine is in good condition I might revisit installing the LWF setup. (Depending on whether I hate the DMF or not). I don't think it works well to try and diagnose an issue like the LWF stalling problem, when you have a dozen other mechanical issues adding to the mix.
The clutch replacement has already been a bit of a nightmare for me, because it took me a while to figure out why someone would replace the 1989 12lb flywheel with a RS 12lb flywheel. Long story short: The transmission was replaced in 1991 with a late style DMF transmission. Of course I found that out after I had ordered all the '89 parts...)

Jeff,
Thanx again for the loan of the stretch gauge! Hopefully this rebuild runs as well as it seems to be going together. :)

Kirk

Kirk,
I've had great luck with the Andial added weight to the LWF. No stalling, even with the AC on....... just a thought.......

-Eric
90 C2

What does andial do? Make their own flywheel or add weight to an rs flywheel somehow?

Kirk

I think the weight that Andial adds is just in the price tag. :) Sorry, could not resist.

To be constructive, I have a 964 based bottom end with the RSR flywheel and have had zero stalling issues. However, I am running 993 v-ram intake and electronics.

I sent Andial the LWF, they added a stainless "weight" ring to the back of the flywheel, and since then the car doesn't stall. When I bought the car, it had the LWF, and a "custom" chip, and I considered it undriveable (part of the purchase price included a "deduction" for the stalling problem)

I think it was $400 or so about 2-3 years ago.

I didn't get much done this weekend. I'm still waiting for parts to come back from powder coating.

So I dissassembled the distributor, repacked the bearings and replaced the drive belt, and I cleaned out the oil sludge from the engine compartment and passenger side rear wheel well.
(Found another oil line I need to replace as well. Ugh.)

Kirk
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153088213.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153088226.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153088245.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153088265.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153088282.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153088307.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153088324.jpg

Amazing how unhappy I was after spending 6 hours with varsol wiping out oil sludge.

Kirk
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153088412.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153088436.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1153088466.jpg