I'm new and I want to learn.
 

Hi fellas,

I'm new to this community and to the Porsche 911. I've always wanted a Porsche 911 and it's finally going to happen at the beginning of next year. I'll be looking for an 87-89 911 Coupe, preferrably with the turbo look body.

I'm interested in doing as much maintenance work as I can by myself because I want to learn as much as I can about the engine.

I would love to be able to help, or watch someone rebuild an engine, I think this will give me alot of understanding on how the internal engine works and give me a better understanding of all the parts.

If anyone lives in Northern California, Bay Area, I'm in Santa Clara, and wouldn't mind having an apprentice per say, i would love for the oppurtunity to help and learn your craft.

I hope to hear from someone in my area and possibly make new friends.

Thanks,

Paul Ferradas

Buy Wanye's book and you'll be on your way.

Next buy $7,500 worth of tools.

Finally buy an old core engine to play with, there is no better teacher than experience.

If you ask intelligent questions on the board and correspond nicely you'll make new friends.


Welcome to Pelican

dont let Henry scare ya, you can do it with less ( you have to understand he is a purrfectionest)...most of us make do

Wow, $7500 for tools? I'm assuming that your including the big machines that you would find at a machine shop to resurface the parts, I wouldn't mess with that stuff. I'm talking about just dropping the engine and taking it apart, that would give me a general understanding, I wouldnt take upon a rebuild myself without actually seeing some being done.

I have $40 K worth of hand tools and haven't bought a new hand tool or box in 15 years. Snap On has replaced a few worn out ones.

Of course you can do it for less. I thought I was being encouraging, thoughtful and friendly.

Funning how people interpret things when there is a little history.


"you have to understand he is a purrfectionest" spoken like someone who has no idea who I am.



BTW: perfectionist

Well to get it construed correctly I dont know if Henry is a purrfectionest, (kindahope he is for our sake)(but he is right I have no idea who he really is..)
But to do a drop and tear dwn and back up again you will need a couple special things. Just depends on how much you will send out..for instance it makes sense for me to have all the machinery to do head work, but no sense at all for other set ups . To me valves and heads are the life of any engine, but lots of other people can handle line bores cranks etc. Just depends on you.....its a slippery slope. Most of us make do with what we got.
When you get to the machine phase , just ask we can all lead to a vendor(s) that will set you up correct.

Perfectionist ? I think not.

From some who knows.

A no non sense, critical thinker capable of original thought.
A sense of humor not always easy to grasp often prone to obscure references but always intended to inform not reform. Honest, observant and always willing to help.

+1

I, myself, like the dry acerbic sense of humor Henry displays. He kills me.


JP

Right, my book is probably the best place to start. At least you'll get an idea of what you're looking at doing for $35: http://www.101projects.com

-Wayne

I thought this thread was about what it took for tools and where to get the KNOW HOW - which is here of course, is where P 101 and 102 and 103 and 104 etc are taught...as far as humor goes....jerry clouse will do

Tools? Yep, you'll need em. Books ? Wayne and Mr. Anderson for sure. In addition to the laughs (but you know that by now) this site is an excellent resource. Enjoy and welcome to the net.

Threads on the board will take the path of least resistance and it seems you couldn't resist making it personal by mentioning a valued members' name. Now you're surprised when people respond?

In life we can just answer a question but sometimes it is productive to help the questioner get at ease which in the long run will be more helpful than just a generic answer.
I think Henry was trying to welcome Paul as much as answering a question.

I would also like to welcome our new member.

Paul,
Welcome to the board. We have fun, We learn from each other, and occasionally we beat on each other. Just like little brothers.
In the end it's all about Porsche knowledge.
Buy Wayne's book and support Pelican.
After all he supports this board.
After a month or so on this board, you'll figure out who to listen to.
Psst: Henry is one of 'em.

HI when you look for you car at the beginning of next year and you are looking round it/checking it over, look in the front and check the tool kit as most of your service tools should be in the kit, wheel brace, plug spanner, 10mm alenkey, screwdriver, tow hook,spair fan belt, key/spanner for the fan belt pulley, 22 or 24mm spanner for the fan belt nut, that should get you started with a basic toolkit you are on your way, a good long reach jack and axle stands (2 sets), oil drain bowl, if you look on PELICAN PARTS in the tool section you can bye the tools as required as the jobs need doing and then the collection starts, in no time at all you will be up to the $7,500 or past that depending on your inquisitiveness and the I will like to do that job, good luck finding the right car, and like Henry says never assume any thing, if in doubt check again or ask some one in the know that can help.

regards mike

Personalities aside, think about a cheap core engine.
You can find them everywhere.
Taking apart an engine without the pressure of "what goes where?" will teach you what you need to know about how things fit together, what tools you'll need and ease the pressure to get your car back on the road. If at that stage you choose to tackle the engine in your car, you'll truly understand the magnitude of that endeavor.

I've started all my trainees this way. Take it apart. Don't worry about how it goes back together.
Inspect the parts and because it is an extra engine you can choose to reassemble it or just sell the parts, probably for enough to pay for tools and the cost of the core. Obviously that value will be based on the core you choose. I will say, it looks like people on Ebay are supplementing their income doing just that.
You can also buy a core that will upgrade your engine (3.0 for a 2.7 car) and during the rebuild you can still drive your car. Then when you're done you can sell the original or save it to keep your matching numbers in tact.

what valued members name ??

The term valued means : highly regarded or esteemed. Valued is obviously a matter of opinion. Henry is helpful, informative and qualified. That is valued.

I think everyone sees the value of your post. It's a shame.

You mean Henry ?? !! well my friend , maybe I dont understand, or you dont. We all like Henry. He is kind of a catalyst and a fulcrum....this board would certainly be different w.o. him. .....So I am totally lost at your remark . Its hard not to miss him with his bench mark

No worries fellas..I too (even though I currently have no engines I am working on) tune into this forum to learn, and read these posts. I also have to say I do occasionally search for Henry's posts just because he has an extremely dry and acerbic wit. It is alot of fun to read his posts because they are both extremely informative and often quite humurous. Obviously he is someone who really loves what he does and has some fun while helping out others at the same time. I really see no offense in anyone's post(s) thus far. Occasionally, some folk's wit may be interpreted the wrong way, but there is no maliciousness that I have seen from Henry-only great info. One of the best things about this forum is that guys like Henry, and John Walker etc. will take the time to help explain the same procedures and answer similar/same questions ad naseum just to help us with these cars and their complicated motors. Having been around heavy equipment shops growing up and knowing what it takes to manage them and put out quality work--their time is quite valuable-so I am often amazed at just how often they will log in and help out.
A.B.

Paul,
I'm in Saratoga. There is a group of us that have accumulated the tools needed to do a tear down and build up. I did a top end rebuild on my 89 3.2. There is so much to learn on this forum and of course start with Waynes book to help you get oriented. I used Ted to do the head work and EBS for most parts. I also went to Jerry Woods (Rich) for p's and c's referb. My mechanic is Don Wise, he is a very nice guy and helps me in all sorts of situations when we don't have the tools or need advice.
Let me know if you want some help.
-Henry C.

Thanks Henry. I just bout Wayne's book, I think it's great, I'm excitied to do some of the work myself when needed. The excitement is building, I start my new job tomorrow and in 1 month I go permanent, once that happens the wifey has given me the go ahead to buy the car. Iv'e been looking at auto trader and yahoo everday but I don't see the right car yet.

There's a car in Socal that is exactly what I'm looking for but I think it's a bit on the high side for that car.

I'm looking for an 87-89 911 Couple with "Turbo Look".

Henry, let me know when another Porsche event happens in the area, I'd like to come pay a visit.

Thanks,

Paul

Make freinds with the technicians at your local porsche place (avoid their boss) then ask them if they can help you in their own time.

You'll find a lot of them are happy too, and have their own tools and their own cars they like to work on, who knows they may even be part of the forum.

Dont be afraid to try every job yourself.
You'll find enough support on this forum to take you through pretty much any job and if anything gets too much for you you can at least go armed and informed to your chosen expert and get them to help you out without selling you the hat & t-shirt..

Enjoy

Ditto!

-Wayne

Maybe you don't understand.
When you use the term "perfectionist" you are refering to a character defect that, IMHO does not fit. You then go on to suggest that the charactrer defect effects the advise he offers.
It is fair ground to question a mans opinion but not his personallity. That only leads to hurt feelings and I would hate to see Henry ignore this board because of this kind of nonsense.

Oh gee whiz poor Henry..like he dont insult anyone at times...If you want to take perfectionism out of context other then what it was meant to be go ahead..if you read the whole thing it was applied to craftsmanship, thats it......let Henry come to his own aid, he is a big boy

Paul,

Welcome to the Forum. SmileWavy You will find a lot of help here.

Forgetting the above banter, there are many skilled posters here. Some are well known and others are “stealth.” :cool:

I agree, ask intelligent questions and you will find the entire wealth of Porsche knowledge at your disposal.

Again, WELCOME. :)

Best,
Grady

Just be careful in the advice you read. If it differs from the advice given by other folks try to figure out why. Seperate the "advice" from the "marketing" and you will be just fine. Always remember there is more than one way to do most things (cantrary to what some think).

As a side note, I have a pretty good sense of humor and miss a lot of the humor that others see in some posts..... :)

CHeers

Whats this place coming to ?? Ya got to walk around on tip toes if you disagree with some one here ??
This is a Borg of thought. I dont push MY way as the Only way...Nither should anyone else. There are lots of "ways ". Most of us have just a garage to work out of and thats where my advice comes from. Some times more like mcguyver if you will...with only 12 post behind you mabe sit tight and get a grip on personalities here.
welcome to the board and become who you will.

Well I don't pussy foot around when it comes to technical discussion. I'm always up for a good reasoned argument. That is how things get resolved politely.

Fortunately the uninformed don't usually post here.

When I express my opinion I say so up front. I'm not shy about expressing my opinion, I just don't do so at someone else's expense.

The fact that this is such a "laid back", honest and informative forum is why I post here. Thank you Wayne, modorators and everyone else.

Best,
Grady

Arrrgh matie, nothing wrong with a argument or discussion...just there is more then one way to hammer in a nail........I for one dont like being told "this " is the only way

No need to defend myself.
I post here to help and get some heat for what I say.
I can take heat and even the silly threats of physical violence.

Here's what's odd, someone comes on and promotes civil discourse and take's heat for it.

What is this board coming to?

"Be nice Johnny. no! I don't want to."
http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/cry.gif
Will all the 4 year olds please stand up.

I second Henry's advice with buying the $400 stuck motor and commence the disassembly. It really educated me and I refer back to that experience all the time.
I still have it in my basement and scavange off of it all the time!!
Great people too.
Nabil

You certainly do NOT need $7k worth of tools, not even if you buy all snap-on tools. All you need is a good 3/8 wratchet with a handful of sockets, eg 10mm thru 19mm and a set of combination wrenches of the same size. Only buy what you need, not complete sets. Add a few special items and a torque wrench and you are good to go. My guess is that if you stick to snap-on you can get by for $700, much less for craftsman. A few special tools and you are at $1500 max.

As to used porsche engines, the going price for a "core" engine of the year you are looking at is about $350, no more. You will need to spend $2500 or more to refurbish it, plus machine work of about $1000. Or you could buy a redone one for about $5K plus core.

Note, the $350 for core engines is what the pros pay. Its more difficult for the amateurs to get that price, but its possible. THe main problem is access to the market for used engines. Pros have it, amateurs have to work at it. As an amateur you may end up paying $700. Plus you are taking the chance that major parts are no good, like cranks. THe pros have a couple of used cranks just laying around, you do not. Just the way it works. a good used crank is twice the price of a complete core engine.

Bottom line, you have to be in the business and have a small volume of engines to make out. Otherwise you need luck, lots of it.

Snowman, it seems we bump heads again. I do enjoy our encounters.
Well I'm confused again.
First: Where do you get a decent set of tools for $700 not to mention, floor jack, jack stands, engine stand, vise, bench, compressor and so on for $1500? I asume you believe these items are necessary. Inquiring minds want to know.

Next is it "$350 no more" or "$700". Your schizophrenic self seems to quote both prices.
Furthermore : He is looking for an 87-89 3.2. Where do you buy a quality reconditioned 3.2 for $5K

Last : The point of taking a cheap core apart is not to put it back together (necessarily) but to disassemble an engine with no pressure to reassemble it.

That experience is priceless.

You don't need a compressor or a "real" engine stand to do the job. A costco floor jack is about $80, jack stands another $80. A decent engine stand is $90, and with reasonable care will not hurt the porsche engine for a one time rebuild.

The core engine, $350 is what I can get one for, $700 is what anyone can get one for at Pomona with a little effort. If you look long and hard nuff you to can get the $350 core. SO yes its one or the other, depending on the buyers skills.



A quality rebuild depends on where you go and what condition your engine is in. $5k is probably the bottom end but possible. Whats your bottom end? Whats Metric Mechanics? I know, but they have to do good work SOME of the time, don't they?

And finally, I probably do have over $30k in tools, but I am a dedicated car nut and have invested for a period of over 40 years in tools. I have built almost every engine out there a couple of times or more. If I were a car pro I would be up in the 1 million bracket. But my local community college provides much more than that for a mere $125 per semester. My local community college was run by a hot rodder. He furnished the college with every single machine ever built for doing hot rod engines. He purchased everything shown in the Engine Blueprinting Book, by Van whatever. Boring, Honing, decking, balancing, valve machines, rod machines. Not to mention the latest Hunter alignment equipment and AC equipment, scales, dynos, and well just everything. Seriously check this option out where ever you live. Even the pros could benefit from this resource. I am a pro in EE and I had over $250K in just software for Microwave stuff. But that was what paid the bills.

I only have about 20K in tools. But then again I sublet head and case machining out. For what I pay for that I can't justify doing it myself. The local dealer and the high end private shops around here agree, they use the same machinist I do... :) I also LEND my tools out to others who need something special that I have here. But then again I have a well paying career and only do this for the fun.

I am here to learn and help where ever I can. I don't post here to make a buck. That is why I lend stuff out. Folks here have treated me like family and I try to treat others the same. Guys like Grady and Chris Bennet and Ralph (and many others) who do the same. I just try to add my little bit (really little bit) of help when and where I can.

I think the majority of posters are like me. They have built one or two or ten motors and have *some* experience and try to tell others about what they have learned. That is what makes this forum great. Well, that and the many different opinions you can see about all different sorts of ways to do things. I, for one, don't read to many posts that say "this is how I do it, and that is the only way to do it"..........

Happy learning! :)


Cheers

If we have the attitude "I have done so much with so little for so long I am now qualified to anything with nothing " This might help ya get around the 30 or 130000 dollar tool syndrome...as you do not need all and every special tool that Porsche says you do. like Snowman and catca says you can invent ways of getting around it. For example a 5 gal plastic bucket will work well for assy the eng. halves for togather. ) Esp if you are only going to do this once, a eng stand would be a wast of $$ . If you are in my area I will gladly lend ya anything "special" that you might need.
We are all here to learn....no one knows it all

FWIW, I rebuilt my engine in a confined, 2-car (net 1-car garage) and couldn't afford the floor space. I assembled the engine on a work bench. The engine sat on a ball bearing turntable which was sandwiched between sheets of 3/4" plywood. Access to any part of the engine (top/bottom) was no problem all the way up to long block status.

As far as tools go, start off with a basic set of decent metric hand tools, floor jack, torque wrench, etc. then add to the tool pile as the need arises. An air compressor and solvent tank are nice to have, but not absolutely necessary.

For special tools:
Cam nut socket
Cam holder
Take-apart ring compressor
Micrometers/vernier caliper
Dial indicator
Factory manual or equivalent

Wayne's Engine Rebuilding Book should spell these out as well.

Sherwood

thats what we need around here is a cando attitude not a cannot tude.
And looks like someone in ca has volunteered to lend you a couple of things already ?