"Black & Brown" Viton Flywheel Seal

[goldgunner]

I've read a dozen threads on the 'updated' flywheel seal, that experienced types say doesn't leak like the 'all black' seal.

Said seal is 'two tone': black and brown and viton - according to the threads.

What's not in any of the threads:
The DARN part number~!!

Anyone know the part number for this fabled two tone seal?

Thanks,
Jim

[kucharskimb]

wish i could tell you. i keep getting the red/brown one from pelican. keeps leaking with NO suspect signs (grooves, out of round, scuffs, etc) maybe it is the case halves...

per the manufacturer, there is supposed to be an installation sleeve provided with the seal. never seen one. also, manufacturer says it MUST be installed dry. all per victor reinz

http://www.reinz.com/pictures/praxisinfo_4_eng.pdf

this is the PTFE seal. not sure if it is the two part that you speak of, or if they are all PTFE. have a gander...

[snowman]

Always follow the mfg recommendations. The reason for leaking is usually putting the new seal in the same spot as the original seal. If you do it will leak. Position in a spot that is not worn or use a sleve to provide a new surface for the new seal.

[goldgunner]

Matt - I used your Victor Reinz link to further research, specific to the more modern and supposedly superior teflon type ring.

Here's what I found:

Porsche # 999.113.264.40 is the standard Reinz flywheel seal.
Reinz # 81-20004-30 which is their material and configuration code:
A SL LD FPM
And is sized: 90mm X 110mm X 12mm
A = Outer cover rubber with metal reinforcing ring
SL = Dust lip
LD = Left-hand thread
FPM = Fluorine rubber

The 'superior' teflon type seal your link describes, per Reinz with the same dimensions as the standard Porsche part:
Reinz # 81-20745-50 Mat'l and Config Code = AB SL LD ACM/PTFE
ACM = Acrylic rubber
PFTE = Teflon

The teflon seal is supposed to come with a sleeve that is used to install the seal and then be removed.

I'm more than willing to try this 'superior' seal...
Question is where to buy it - anyone know?
A websearch finds nothing...

Thanks,
Jim

[snowman]

A caution. even if this seal is installed using the sleeve, do not install it so it is directly over a well worn spot or it will leak. There are permanent sleeves that install over the original crank that will prevent leaks, not the same as an installation sleeve.

[goldgunner]

Understood.

The sleeve with the fancy Reinz teflon seal is for installation of the seal only - it is removed once the seal is in place.

This is the sleeve to apply prior to the seal installation:
http://www2.chicago-rawhide.com/speedi_sleeves.htm

[JasonAndreas]

Originally posted by goldgunner
Question is where to buy it - anyone know?
A websearch finds nothing...

Porsche Motorsports has been using this style of seal since the 993 GT2-EVO and still use it on the 996GT3 RSR so you can buy it from them or do what PMNA does and order it from any Porsche dealer and scrape off the part number 996-102-264-92 and P triangle and then resell it for $90USD.

[goldgunner]

Jason - you've confused my feeble old mind.
PMNA (Porsche Motorsports North America) buys the seal from Porsche (via Porsche dealers) and removes the Porsche 'brand' and part number? Huh? Why would 'Porsche' buy from 'Porsche' and remove 'Porsche'?

What am I missing here?

[JasonAndreas]

Originally posted by goldgunner
Why would 'Porsche' buy from 'Porsche' and remove 'Porsche'?

They do that with a lot of motorsports parts. The buyer ends up without the two-year warranty that comes with all Porsche branded parts and they pay a few dollars less. I'm not positive if PMNA is getting parts out of the same two warehouses that all NA dealers get their stuff from or if the parts are sent directly from PMG. But I am 100% positive that they are scraping, sanding, etc. the part numbers and Porsche Warenzeichen off the parts.

[goldgunner]

well ok...buy I seem to still need a p/n to buy it from whoever.
And this is the same 90mm X 110mm X 12mm size?

[Henry Schmidt]

There are actually at least five different flywheel seals that I have found and I stock four.
The first 4 are listed in order of quality.( As we have experienced it)
Elring
Black and brown ACM/FPM Acrylic rubber outer/ Viton inner.
Kaco
All brown all Viton FPM
Victor Reinz
All brown but only partially cover metal housing FPM Viton
Kaco
All black ACM acrylic rubber Partial metal cover


There is a fifth one for the crank case vacuum 966 (2005<)
The seal is FPM with a Teflon lip. This seal is designed to be installed backward in order to handle the case vacuum.
I can get them but I don't stock them. Cost is 60% of Motorsports.

[Rob 930]

Though this may not be germane, because I have a 3.3 crank in my 78 930, I was having trouble getting my flyweel-end crankshaft seal not to leak, and I thought I'd share what I learned. The thread discussing that is here

I resolved the problem using a technique suggested by Dick Elverud in Portland, who has decades of experience of engine building. Though he said he rarely has problems with seals on 9-bolt flywheel cranks, like mine, he's more often had problems getting the seals to not leak on 6-bolt cranks (such as you have, I believe). This is a technique that he's apparently used primarily on 6-bolt cranks. I gather it's sort of a last resort -- obviously it would be best to use the right seal, install and locate it properly, and be done. But if that isn't enough, here's what he suggests:

Take the spring out of the new seal, "unscrew" the ends of the spring where they are joined to make a circle, and shorten it by about 4 mm. The ends of the spring can then be "screwed" back together again to form a ring that's smaller in diameter and hence tighter around the sealing lip of the seal.

I had a very difficult time getting my crank to seal. It took the fourth seal installation (done by three different pros), in conjunction with this trick, to finally get the leak to stop. But it was successful, and I'm glad I didn't disembowel the engine I had just built in a futile attempt to fix the seal leak, because I would probably have had the same problem upon reassembly anyway.

The seal I ended up using was an all-black Kaco seal, which was purchased at the dealer. I had also tried the brown seal that came with the Reinz set (twice). I'm not convinced that the seal type was the problem -- I think either seal would have been okay. And oddly, the fourth (and successful) installation had the seal placed flush with the case spigot -- which is exactly where it was installed when I first disassembled the engine prior to rebuild. Though I can agree that it's best to avoid the "groove" where the old seal has run, I tried doing that on all three prior seal installations (prior to the spring shortening), and I still had a leak. I do think that it's important to use a temporary sleeve around the crank end to keep from nicking the running surface of the seal (such as a piece of transparency), and it's important to examine the bore where the seal OD rides to make sure there are no burrs.

I had almost decided to install a Speedi-Sleeve, which is mentioned above. That was truly my last resort, which fortunately I didn't need to engage. In studying the dimensions of the various Speedi Sleeves, I was concerned that there might be some issues getting them to work. But perhaps with the 6 bolt crank it woudl be a better match.

[Henry Schmidt]

The spring trick is an old Type I VW recycle. It's funny how old info resurfaces from generation to generation.

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by JasonAndreas
Porsche Motorsports has been using this style of seal since the 993 GT2-EVO and still use it on the 996GT3 RSR so you can buy it from them or do what PMNA does and order it from any Porsche dealer and scrape off the part number 996-102-264-92 and P triangle and then resell it for $90USD.

I suspect that if company X supplies a molded part tp Porsche (with Porsche logo) that they remove the logo in the mold for the parts they sell to the aftermarket i.e. "OEM". This would make a lot more sense than having some guy scrape the logo and part # off every seal. In other words I think the seal that is pictured is the OEM version of the same factory seal.
-Chris

[JasonAndreas]

Originally posted by ChrisBennet
This would make a lot more sense than having some guy scrape the logo and part # off every seal.

Tthe lettering on the seal was physically removed by someone, it is obvious when looking at the seal close up. My guess is dremel tool?





You can still kinda make out some of the lettering.

Originally posted by ChrisBennet
In other words I think the seal that is pictured is the OEM version of the same factory seal.

The above seal was purchased from PMNA. I also purchased another (with markings) from your friendly neighborhood Porsche dealer, I can post photos of that one also. I was unable to find anyone to confirm what the sealing requirements were when running a one-way crankcase breather valve in a 964. Lots of things were posted about the 996 GT3 & RSR but nobody (online or off) knew what was what, so I ordered one of everything.

Originally posted by Henry Schmidt
The spring trick is an old Type I VW recycle. It's funny how old info resurfaces from generation to generation.

If you know of any tricks for installing this newer style seal without the tool that screws into the crankshaft I am all ears.

[snowman]

Just curious, what happens to Porsche rejects?