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I've done the CV rebuild many times, so I applaud your ability to keep things clean with all the moly spewing about :)
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Those loose fitting clamps may be a DOT requirement to protect the end of the hose. I remember reading that the main difference between DOT approved and non-DOT approved brake hoses is the protection of the hose ends.
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Thanks fellows for your inputs
BlueSideUp………… I would agree that most often, when we explore the reasons for what appears as illogical engineering by Porsche, the roots will be found in government regulation, usually for safety or environmental reasons. I doubt that is the case with those loose ferrules on the C2 fuel hoses though, because such a DOT rule would have applied to all car builders. And BTW, did you notice that photo on this thread, by axl911, of a 993 fuel rail? It would appear the loose-ferrule idea had been dropped before the 993 production. Chris...........yes indeed, I could not agree more. Moly grease is certainly difficult to work with, without ending up covered in it. I don’t enjoy using it, and practically never do, except for the Lobro CV joints. Even then, be thankful for thin rubber gloves and paper towels. |
A TRIVIAL PERSUIT
I had to pull the fan out anyway because I wanted to change that bearing before it goes bad. So while apart it wasn’t much more trouble to separate the housing also, and give them both a cleanup. Who can resist a little polish at this point? Nothing serious mind you, just done by hand. This time I want to try a product called Shark Hide. It is intended for aluminum, and widely used by boaters………How will it do on magnesium? Anyone already tried it? More intended as a sealant to stop oxidation, rather than a finish, we shall see. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168037522.jpg On a more serious note, and probably more interest to others, I received the head back today along with a broken-stud removal tool. Actually, of course, it is a precision jig for drilling out the broken stud. Some among this Pelican group are truly talented and capable of designing and fabricating such fine machine work; such is the case with Christian Sokolowski. This is a high quality tool, just developed for the 964 specifically, and will be invaluable in the event of a broken exhaust stud. I have no stake whatsoever in the project but can certainly recommend getting one of these while Chris has them. You will not find them anywhere else! Christian Sokolowski rsr911@neo.rr.com http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168037629.jpg |
James,
Thank you so much for the kind words. Actually having a 964 head in my hands for the design process was absolutely invaluable. Overall I believe this tool will be even more accurate than the tool for earlier engines since the O-ring groove is for lack of a better term "square" with the stud holes as if machined all in one setup. Also there isn't the issue of stacked tolerances when using replaceable port disks like the early car tool. I am so impressed with Porsche's level of quality that I'm convinced there is no other automaker in the world in which I could precisely locate using the port and one stud as a reference. As for availability, I have a few of these available right now and will make others as need be, these are made from 5/8" steel as I felt machining the ring into 1/2" steel would make the tool too thin. I'm a hobby machininst with an old CNC so now worries about future availability as I always appreciate making a little money to help offset the costs of my hobbies. Anyway I just finished reading this entire thread and I've bookmarked it, I'm very impressed with your attention to detail and can't wait to see the final product of all this work you've put in. One more thing, if you get a chance post a pic of the "business end" of the tool so others can see how it locates with the ring. I so wanted to snap some pics while I had the head here but my old digicam is dead and the new one hasn't arrived yet, cell phone pictures were too fuzzy to post. |
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THE SOLOLOWSKI BROKEN-STUD TOOL
Happy to put up another view of this fine tool, this time showing how it fits so precisely into the exhaust port. It may interest some to know that the missing stud in this photo was actually drilled out using this very tool as the jig. Contact Chris if you would like one too. This particular specimen is not for sale! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168101624.jpg |
I finished up the half shafts today, and they are back in the car.
This photo, taken just before the splines and threads were painted with Optimoly HT, was to remind myself to ask others about those clamps for the rubber boots. Right side on the shop towel is the original style. It is hardly a clamp, but rather looks as if the boots themselves are now tight fitting enough to seal the grease in without clamping. These seem more like back-up straps to prevent spreading of the boots under centrifugal loads while operating at high speeds. I say this, because I cannot see any way to tighten them sufficiently to call it a clamp. On the left, is the universal affair that came with the new boots. It does have an ear for tightening, but I don’t like it because the universal nature of the strap requires those perforations all around – which in time would damage the boots. What I have decided to use, is another after market CV clamp which seems better, at least to my untrained eye. This smooth clamp is in 304 stainless, and the clasp arrangement allows the strap to actually be pulled up nice and snug, after which the excess strap is cut away. Does anyone know the full story of why Porsche decided on that original style?? http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168123062.jpg |
…back to, THE MAIN EVENT
First put the cooling air ducts in place. Then just snug up the knock-sensor bracket bolts. Lay out what will be needed for one bank, including Dow Corning 111 for the oil return o-rings, LubroMoly LM for the head stud threads and washers, and ThreeBond 1104 for the cam tower/heads joint. Lube the studs – place sealing rings on the cylinder tops – fit the oil return tubes. Heads into position with washers/nuts loosely fitted. Final cleaning of the sealing faces on heads and tower. Paint 1104 on the tower face and position it over the three heads. Rubber mallet will help seat the tower on the locating dowels. Quickly but deliberately get the tower washers and nuts on and snug. Torque in sequence, and in two steps – 10 lbs. and finally 17 lbs. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168210898.jpg That exercise took 15 minutes from first brush stroke till last nut at final torque. Now relax and move on to head studs. In sequence, and I used 10 lbs, then 20 lbs, and finally 32 lbs (these are Super Tech head studs). http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168211052.jpg Starting to again look like a type 911 engine. Next will be to check whether the cams are a sweet fit. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168211135.jpg |
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Jason,
I got the new fan bearing from out host, Pelican. Part # 96410605130. It comes complete with the fan hub and bearing. Sorry, I don't have the rating for the bearing - nor do I know where to look for it. I didn't change the alternator bearings, but if you locate a source I certainly am interested. |
New chains and rails I think are in order. The sprockets looked
OK. One thing to watch for if renewing the rails, are these locating caps (plastic), and the split pins that retain them to the long, straight guide rails. The new rails will not come with these parts, so you can change them over from the old rails. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168381215.jpg This is how they look when in place. These locating caps restrict how the long rails must be fitted to the engine. The easiest way is to fit the curved guide rails in place on the engine case first with the retaining pins in place, and then have the long rails positioned inside the chain housing when you offer it up to the case. After the housing is fastened down, then fit the retaining pins for the straight sections. A medium pry bar can be slipped to the engine side of the rails and easily snap them in place on the retaining pins. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168381274.jpg I used Dow Corning 111 on the big O-rings and to lubricate the rubber inserts on the metal, housing-to-case gaskets. ThreeBond 1104 was spread on the metal part of that gasket, both sides, and also on the paper gaskets between cam end covers and heads. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168381450.jpg Sprockets are both tightened here, and ready for measuring/deciding what changes may be needed in the shim numbers. That will wait a day or two though………the Home Entertainment Show is in town, and I shall go have a look at the latest and greatest being offered in the world of high end audio. |
Well it will have to wait now while I get some additional cam
sprocket shims. Strangely, the original engine set-up was with two shims under each sprocket. I measured today and the left side needs one shim added, while the 4-5-6 side needs two additional shims. This will end up with three left and four right……..just as nearly every engine seems to require. |
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That is interesting Chris. One might be tempted to imagine
that the measuring business just took too much time to bother with.......... |
………….”if ya can’t duct tape it, then its jus broke”
The good ole boys in Louisiana have a point; duct tape is useful indeed. I attempted several approaches while searching for a way to do this measuring job without a second pair of hands. This is the only one which would give accurate, precise and repeatable results. It is a Starrett, number 385 straight-edge with a depth micrometer tightly taped firmly in place. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168726370.jpg While waiting for more shims, I combined the ones I have and did the 4-5-6 sprocket. Came out within three thousands as expected from the initial measurements. Must wait now for more shims. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168726442.jpg |
I got the needed extra sprocket shims, and now both sides are adjusted to spec.
Today I set the camshaft timing, and tightened the sprocket nuts. All straight forward and without issues. Nice to be back at work. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169167279.jpg |
Wow.....that's the factory 964/993 chain tensioner. Can you make some quick measurement on how much the tension depresses the chain?
Lots of us including myself have been using brake pad spreader and power steering puller to tension the chain. But it is always a question on how far to depress the chain ramp to put tension on the chain. I would really appreciate this bit of info. --- anthony |
As far as I remember there is no torque specification in the WSM on how to tighten the factory chain tensioners. I used a 2mm thick strip of metal with one M12 thread cut into in the center and two holes to mount it to the opening. A long M12 screw and voila. Doesn't look as impressive but worked just the same....
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The factory manual specifes the tensioner must be tightened until "the recess on the plunger must just barely remain visible". Also, there is a specific left and right tensioner tool.
So there is a specific distance the tensioner tool must depresses the chain ramp. I would like to know that distance. --- anthony |
Oh I see. I wasn't aware of that detail.
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Anthony,
Yes, the WSM instructs to take that tension down until the white index line can just be seen, as in the photo. The tools are the same for left and right. What you may not realize, from the photo or other illustrations, is that the shaft of the tool contains a spring. So as you tighten down that uppermost hex head (only requires hand pressure) you are putting the spring into compression, and for this reason, I cannot answer your question of how tight to take it. It is the spring that tensions the chain. I don't believe the plastic rail is depressed any further that you could do with finger pressure. As I tension the spring I cannot notice any movement of the chain rail, and indeed would worry about streaching the chain if I did see such movement. With the spring compression there to keep the chain under tension while in motion…..is about the only advantage I can see over a simple shop-made tool. |
Thanks jwpate. I talked to a shop which has the tool and they said the same thing. They also said that the curve ramp of the 964/993 doesn't require that much tension as the earlier 911.
I've been putting much tension on my chains and have been getting inconsistent results. Guess I'll back off the tension to finger tight and see if I can get better result. |
So, finish up the chain cases. Put the original tensioners back in:
careful, as there is a left and a right. Always position the oil hole toward the cap, for that is the source for oil under pressure. Gaskets, are combination metal/rubber, and were treated same as the chain case to engine case gaskets. Then replace the oil feed pipes to the cam towers. New O-rings lubricated with Dow Corning 111. Take one last look……..and wonder whether you will ever see these parts again. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169245839.jpg The chain covers have rubber gaskets similar to the valve covers. Lubricate with 111 and carefully fit them in place. All-metal lock nuts in this case only get 4 foot pounds. That is enough to compress the gaskets and not much more. Then replace remainder of valve rockers/shafts. Position all the small Allen heads inboard so they can be changed in situ, should that later become necessary. The task of adjusting 911 valve clearances just does not get more comfortable and pleasant than this. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169245920.jpg |
Just to establish a baseline, I put in the lower spark plugs and
ran leakdown tests on each cylinder. All low percentages, as expected……but best to find out now if there is a problem somewhere. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169331898.jpg At this point the long block is ready to receive the intake, exhaust and other bolt on items. The WSM will be of little help here, so go back to the listing you made of the sequence in which things came off. There are more ways than one to do this, and there are many, many more wrong ways to start. So I put them back in a sequence which I know will work the first time…………just reverse the way they came off. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169332009.jpg |
Time to put the PS pump back in place, and we need to be
deliberate with that cam shaft seal and the o-ring. This arrangement is an oil leak waiting to happen. Seal set in Curil T and Dow Corning 111 to lubricate the o-ring. Torque the shaft bolt to spec. and but the covers back on. Be sure to put that sheet metal panel on first. This would also be a great time to replace the drive belt too, but this one is still fairly new, so I did not. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169504807.jpg Finish up by replacing the remainder of the rear sheet metal and the muffler hanger. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169504878.jpg The front pulley/vibration damper assembly goes on next. First, put on that aluminum A/C compressor bracket. Some members prefer to grind it sufficient to just clear the pulleys. I just put it back stock. This takes heavy tackle to get the bolt in to specified torque. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169505030.jpg Finally you should jury rig a setup to check the pulley run-out. The WSM states that it must be less than 0.5 MM. This one was only about 2 thousands of an inch, so that tapered nose section on the crank does seem to be effective. I didn’t need to tap with a hammer or otherwise adjust it. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169505185.jpg |
WHERE WAS THE LOGIC?
In the older model 911’s, should a fan belt break the alternator light would alert the driver. Now we have a split-spool system with the fan and alternators running at different speeds, and driven by separate belts and pulleys – all made possible by the addition of a hub bearing. A broken alternator belt will still have the same alert as always, but should the fan belt break then a new warning is needed. That need was met by the “broken belt idler wheel” which will warn if the fan belt should break. So far - so good. We have a seven-volume Manual which could allow only a footnote mention of piston orientation and couldn’t provide any specification whatsoever for deck height. Yet that same manual found room for three full pages of text and illustrations, in order to explain (in step-by-step detail) the operation of this uncomplicated device. Then another two full pages are devoted to adjusting the tension on these two pulley belts. Perhaps some of our more experienced and wiser members can explain. I am only able to guess. Could be that someone in the WSM division considered this little 9574 tool to be the real bees knees, or the absolute cat’s meow. Or, more likely I suppose, there was a worry about the life expectancy of that hub bearing………and all the attention to belt adjustment was an effort to prevent ham-fisted owners/mechanics from getting the belts over tight, especially the outer, alternator belt. Anyone know how long the bearings usually last? I decided that 60k was a fair expectation – and put in a new one. Anyway, they are both adjusted to the new-belt specification. It took three shims in each pulley. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169587229.jpg After the tensions are correct, the final step is to torque the alternator nut to 37 foot pounds. As I started to tighten, I began to wonder when I might next need to face that nut! The imagination ran quickly to a dark, cold roadside setting – with those little tools from the Porsche tool roll in my hands and a flashlight in my mouth. It was raining, of course. I decided that 30 pounds would do just fine. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169587469.jpg |
HI JW sorry to bother you mid stream , but I noticed you are using a old P201 engine holder/claw, would you please check very carefully the welds onto the pivot shaft, as I have come across a few of the claws braking in that area with the heaver engines on , most where built for the 2.0lt-2.7lt engines and the design was changed for the 3.0lt heaver engine, please check as I would not like all your effort collapsing onto the floor.
regards mike |
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Thanks fellows,
Mike, Wow! The first thing I will do today is check those welds. Probably I will continue with this yoke but save the exhaust mufflers until the engine is back in the car, just for the weight. Actually I have worried right along about the fact that only two bolts can be used to attach the yoke, and they are threaded into aluminum. It is those aluminum threads that I worried about. Now that you have opened my eyes to the yoke itself, I will use one of the new five arm jobs next time. I have had this yoke since the early 7o's so it has seen a little use. Thanks again! Have you ever known the bolts to pull out of the engine case? Jason, thanks for that info. which seems to confirm that there certainly was an issue at one point with the hub bearings. I think we need to be careful in setting that belt tension. |
HI JW I have never seen the threads pull out of the case with the engine on the stand/claw, I have some photos of one of the engine claw's that started to drop with a SC engine on it , the lad's in the workshop got it before it hit the ground, I made a new one for him and had the old one in part'x , I only use it for gearbox work, I should cut the legs off it and put a new set of legs and shaft on it, then I can use it properly.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169662661.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169662687.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169662718.jpg this is what it should look like. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169662930.jpg regards mike |
Thanks again Mike. That is a frightening story, and certainly
sufficient motivation to obtain the new style yoke - now. I got the distributors back on today, along with new caps, rotors and new ignition harness. I will miss the decals which were on the old harness, where it goes over the fan housing. The A/C R12 data will not be missed, but the other decal was a nice illustration of the distributor caps/wire positions and firing order. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169678126.jpg I also got the fuel rails, injectors and lines back on. Several of the plastic intake tubes had cracks around the flange area so I replaced all six with new ones. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169678201.jpg |
James you can buy the yellow distributor lead decal ... 964.602.544.01
I brought one ready for my up and coming 964 rebuild. finish the job for 51 ukpence...approx 25UScents!!! |
James .
You engine parts look so clean. Did you replate (yellow Cadmium) all your washer, nuts bolts, brackets or just buy new, or were you just lucky they were new any way ? Reason I ask as i'm looking at replating all my parts with a DIY Cadmium kit. Ian |
Hi Ian,
Thank you for that tip on the decals – I didn’t expect them to be still available. Now I have that one on order. Most of the 6mm and 8mm hardware I just replaced with new. Some of the brackets I did re-plate. The straps and hardware for the fan housing first went out to a local outfit, for plating in yellow zinc. They gave back such a laughable job, I finally bead-blasted their finish off too and plated them here in nickel. The fan pulleys I also did in nickel. I like yellow cad just fine, but you are unlikely to find anyone doing it…….the environmental issues involved have made the process out of the question for small operations. What you get instead, is zinc plate with a yellow dye. Zinc is OK, especially where a thin plate is needed as on tight fitting parts, but it’s not the real thing. I like nickel better for looks, feel and resistance to corrosion. But that is just me. Today I got the air duct on between the heat-exchangers. Also the engine hanger and center muffler hanger. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169766856.jpg I mentioned before that we should keep the small, tightening Allen heads inboard – so they can be taken out easily without dropping the engine, should the need ever arise. To do that though, one cannot just run an extension down the bores for the torque wrench. At least one fastener will need the actual tool for the job. My inch pound torque wrench only went to 50 so I have been waiting for this tool to arrive. It came today and so the last two rocker shaft bolts are tightened to spec. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169766945.jpg With that done, the valve covers go back on. DC 111 as lubricant on the rubber gaskets. Only 7 pounds on the nuts – the new wrench found another use already! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169767046.jpg I took the recent advice from Mike very much to heart. This is about as far as I am prepared to stretch my luck with the four- arm engine holder. It is nice to be able to rotate, but let’s also be safe. Also not much need to rotate from here on out. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169767120.jpg So, this is the new order……..thanks to the People’s Republic of China (and Chris – few pages back – this thread). http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169767197.jpg |
Enjoy the table, it is one of my favorite tools - it really makes life easy with a heavy engine.
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While I was out walking just now, I got to thinking about the
chain case covers and the valve covers on the 964 engines. While they are very similar both in design and function, sharing also the same thick rubber-style (probably neoprene) gaskets, the fasteners used on the covers have evolved along slightly different lines. The valve covers use thick aluminum washers and nylon-insert, lock nuts set at seven pounds; while the chain covers use thick rubber washers under steel cups and with steel lock nuts set at four pounds, all being mounted to 6 mm studs. It might reasonably be expected that the explanation for these differences is rooted in the underlying materials. And there it is…….for although they both use 6 mm studs, the valve cover studs screw into aluminum material while the chain studs must anchor into Magnesium, which certainly will result in reduced tensile strength for the later. That logic seems to explain the use of rubber washers to cushion along with a reduced tightening tension, in order to give the chain cover fasteners a fighting chance under high vibration operating conditions. What about the use of nylon-insert nuts on the valve covers though? They are the only nyloc nuts I remember seeing anywhere on the engine. A quick check with the parts listing reveals that yes, they are different part numbers. Perhaps a more knowledgeable Pelican can shed additional light on the subject. |
Weird, the 993 which uses the same 964 parts calls for 7ft-lbs for the chain housing cover. The 964 WSM states 4, the 993 WSM states 7.
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Weird is the word! And I certainly cannot explain it. Not likely to
simply be a misprint or typo, for the four pound spec. is in every one of the publications. Maybe someone will know…… Here is another weird one, and I doubt any will know the answer. Today I got around to the bell housing and spent over an hour searching, without success, for a tightening value to use on those four 10 mm torx head bolts seen in the photo. The housing is not an engine part and there is no mention of in the engine volume. It is also not a transmission part, so no mention in the tiptronic volume. It is not mentioned anywhere…..just fell through the crack! Not the WSM, not the BENTLEY manual, and not the little spec. book either. Eventually, I gave each of them blue loctite and 32 foot pounds. Should anyone have a proper factory setting I would love to hear it. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169852616.jpg Also a question arose at the other end of the engine, while putting on the sheet metal and sound pads. That long oil pipe, which will deliver to the filter housing, certainly needs a support around the pulley end of the engine. There was nothing there when I tore it down so didn’t have a clue. But I did note a threaded 6mm hole in the engine carrier center section that looks about right. Nothing else was using the hole so I fitted a clamp, using a larger, 8mm nut as spacer to avoid any tension on the pipe. Can any 964 owners remember how the original pipe support was done? No illustrations could be found! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169852800.jpg |
Here are some pics from my previous oil leak repairs.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169860606.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169860629.jpg |
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