Thanks a million for those photos. It looks as though I guessed right on that one. I can feel much better now that I know for certain.

Yep, your guess looked the same from factory.
I admire your attention to details.

Nine rather important bolts are pictured here; the crankshaft
attachment, of course. Notice that with the tiptronic, these are
much shorter bolts and they have the torx head which is so
common on that transmission type. Same high tensile steel
though.
Clean threads, coat with Optomol, and clean the threads in the
crank also.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169936411.jpg
Again, nothing in the WSM about these fasteners, but the little
Technical Specification booklet provides a target torque value of
66 pounds. In this case, we are attaching a drive plate rather
than a flywheel.

Inspirational credit for the special crank-holder tool goes to Kirk.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169936551.jpg
The WSM provides especially nice directions for measuring the
depth and selecting a correct shim set for this engine speed
sensor, and the factory method will allow the job to be done in
situ.
In this case, with the transmission out of the way, I think it is
faster and probably more accurate to check the actual clearance
with a feeler gauge.
Spec. is 1.0 mm plus or minus 0.1 mm. The shims come in .1
and .4 mm and this engine had one of each. I found that
removing the thinner shim produced a near perfect 1 mm gap.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1169937170.jpg

I have saved this chore until now, when it is ready to go back
on.

That group of hoses in the right foreground make up a plumbing
arrangement that Rube Goldberg would be proud to call his own
(translate to Heath Robinson for English members).

One thing I shall do now while these parts are separated is pull
out that aluminum plug and tap it with 6 mm threads, for easy
removal in future. Must remove it if I ever want to adjust the idle
mixture and the job is much easier now.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170024840.jpg
I spent the day quietly cleaning parts. Do one part of this whole
tangle at a time. Work with main sections, getting the tangle of
hoses back correctly, while you can remember. Clean everything
well, and the filth inside the main intake passages will surprise
you– replace rubber as needed (I changed a couple of hoses and
all the rubber sleeves) – lubricate the pull-rod ends, etc.

Mostly everything looked OK. The fragments on the table are
remains of small rubber dust boot on the cruise control cable.
Because I cannot replace it without changing the entire cable, I
have decided it can carry on as is.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170024916.jpg

Today I got the rest of the Motronic plumbing back on along with
the air intake horns. One item that caught my notice was this
actuating shaft for the lower air butterfly. The butterfly valve
itself is spring loaded closed and opened by the vacuum unit
which can seen above. Vacuum pressure in this case is controlled
by an electrically operated valve, which is out of view on the front
side.

The interesting thing is that unused control arm with the vacant
hole. It may be part of a system used on other
models……..anyone remember seeing something attached to it??

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170109363.jpg

Another missing item on this engine was grommet protection at
the orifice which allows the throttle cable through the rear sheet
metal. Evidence of the need for such a device can be seen in the
damage already started on the cable sheath. Most likely, the
grommet was originally a part of the cable assembly.
Fit a grommet appropriate to the sheet metal hole first – it will
pass over the cable end fittings. Then slice a smaller grommet so
as to get it around the cable sheath, and use it to close the
remaining space. Coat the outer edge of the small grommet with
super glue just before pushing it home.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170109489.jpg
Most of the Bosch Motronic connections are delt with from the
flywheel end. The engineering is cleaver and will limit mistakes
anyway, but trace everything so it goes on correctly. The WSM
illustration will insure the electric connections at the support
tower are in the appropriate holes.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170109539.jpg
Trace now through every fuel circuit, vacuum circuit and every
electrical sensor to be certain all is where it should be and all
fittings are tight.
I don’t see anything left here………..so tomorrow I will offer up the
Tiptronic.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170109631.jpg

Well done! I see this in the car and fired up in no time.

I wonder if Wayne would want to get some nice images of this engine for his new book. I really does look sweet with the clean fan... :D

Thanks for the encouragement fellows.........

This is a view of the torque converter nose, and it will center into
the crank shaft. They obviously dressed it with something but I
really cannot identify it for sure. Seems to me that anti-seize
would be appropriate, so I cleaned it up and used Wurth CU 800.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170196562.jpg
Provided you lash up something to take the weight of the
Tiptronic and keep it level, the fitting up to the flanges actually
goes easier than a standard, for there are no shaft splines to
worry with.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170196663.jpg
Get the eight flange bolts in and tightened to spec. first. Because
some of those rascals are difficult to get at, this will take longer
than you might expect.
Then remove the torque converter holding tool and go in through
the starter motor hole to fasten the eight 6 mm Allen bolts, which
fix the torque converter to the drive plate seen earlier.
Replace the starter, leaving the lower bolt loose, for it will receive
a ground wire.

Now how am I going to get all this commotion under the back end
of that car???

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170196785.jpg

JW,

Have you installed your engine yet? I used the same fuel line you did to connect my 993 fuel rails. But I used a fuel hose clamp to snug the hose to the rail.

Just started my engine, and the line is leaking on both ends. You may wan to doublecheck yours.

I compared the SAE 30R9 hose to the Porsche hose, the Porsche hose seemed to have a much thicker hard inner section. I think the SAE hose inner section is too thin and therefore could not provide the seal needed for the pressure.

It may be that on the 964 by the time the fuel get to this line it may be at a lower pressure. But on the 993, the hose provide the high pressure to the left side rail.

I am going to try and source a stock rail/hose.

---
anthony

Oh, my. That is bad news, and I am sorry to hear that we are not at the bottom of this fuel hose business just yet. Before I start this engine I shall check and report what I find.

First I put the front wheels up on ramps, in order to reduce the
final angle somewhat.
Then used the floor jack with that wood adapter (it has holes
matching the transmission hanger – two bolts insure against it
slipping), and from the front quarter lifted the rear body sufficient
to allow the engine/hydraulic table to roll under. Then sat the
body back on jack stands and removed the jack with
adapter……..as in this photo.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170283227.jpg
From there on it was without a doubt, the most satisfying engine
replacement I have ever known, with everything rock solid and
under full control. Here the transmission hanger bolts and engine
support nuts are in place with the table about to roll back out.
Love that hydraulic table Chris………thanks again for the tip.

And thanks also to all the suggestions and hints from other
Pelicans along the way.. From here it is just routine hook-ups
and then see if the thing will run. See first, if the fuel hoses are
sound.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170283342.jpg

Bravo! It really is great to use the table after doing sooooo many R&R's with a floor jack (or two) and a square of plywood.

Anthony,
Further to the high pressure fuel lines, I have spent the past
couple of hours testing and inspecting those new, SAE rubber
sections.
I must say that after your experience, I was prepared to pull
the engine back out and order the complete fuel hose
assemblies, knowing from previous searching that I cannot
source the German spec. hose. But, actually I cannot find any
problems anywhere in the system, and I replaced them all.
First I put 70 pounds of air pressure on the system just to
check that none of the push on hose sections might fly off. I
could hear the fuel regulator open and release the pressure
however, so all I was actually getting was the regular system
pressure.
Then I hooked up the fuel lines and ran the fuel pump
continuously for about 15-25 minutes, while watching each and
every hose end connection for leakage. All dry.
With this result, I am prepared to continue on with hooking up
the engine components and try to start it.
I cannot explain the results you were getting Anthony, and
that still worries me. Did you use 5/16 hose on the 8 mm
replacements? And 3/8 hose on the 10 mm replacements?
I don’t have a manual to study the 993 injection system, but is
it not a Motronic, Pulse Injection system? The 964 system will be
at high pressure from the pump to the fuel pressure regulator,
and from there the return to tank is low pressure. So all lines
going two and from the fuel rails are at high pressure. By high
pressure, I mean 3.8 bar (55 PSI) when the manifold pressure is
at ambient (either engine not running or at full open throttle) and
3.3 bar (48 PSI) when running at idle vacuum.
Even after sitting for a quarter hour or so, the high pressure
side will be at over 40 pounds.
Does the 993 operate at higher pressures than these?

The 993 fuel lines are a bit more simplified than the 964. I've attached a diagram. The fuel filter connects to the right side rail. The left side is connected to the righ side by the fuel line (which leaks after I replaced it with the 30R9). The right rail has the fuel regulator and is connected to the return line.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170362105.jpg

I only replaced the line between the rails. I used Goodyear 5/16 hose. The other lines are the one with the pressed on fittings. I left those alone.

According to the WSM, the pressures for the 993 is the same as the 964, 3.3 and 3.8 bars. The hose between the rails would be at that pressure.

After taking my fuel rails out, I pulled out the 30R9 hose. It came off the rail VERY EASILY unlike the stock hose which I had to cut off.

I took pictures of the 30R9 and the stock hose and attached them. The inner tube/section of the 30R9 (Goodyear) is very thin and flimsy compared to the much thicker stock hose. If you look closely at the 30R9 hose after I took it off, you can see that the inner liner actually tore off. I did use WD40 to lubricate the rail before inserting the hose.

I did lube the rail with WD-40 when pushing the hose onto the rail, and then use the fuel hose clamp to secure the hose to the rail. Maybe that's part of the problem. I would like to know how you fare on your end when your engine is run. Mine leaked and you can tell after couple of seconds running. It was seeping/wet on the hose, but wasn't dripping.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170362149.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170362159.jpg

Did the rails themselves have a single barb and space for a clamp, or was it the fir tree style?

It was fir tree. I just didn't feel very comfortable just putting the hose on there without the clamps. So, I put the clamps on and snugged it down a bit, nothing super tight, but not too loose.

Maybe that's the cause of the problem.

All very interesting I think. Was the original hose the Cohline
370? Or had they gone over to a newer hose for the 993? I don’t
remember the inner lining being as thick as your photo, but
maybe I just don’t remember clearly.
I don’t know that the clamps would have caused a problem. The
problems I have read about in clamping the fir tree fittings are
this; the clamp can cause the barbs to cut through the inner
lining completely, even allowing it to collapse back and partially
plug the ID of the hose.
What I cannot understand is the ease with which you pulled it
off. I don’t think I could pull these hose ends off at all, let alone
easily; which returns my thinking to the question of size. From
memory, the flat sections between the fir tree barbs were just
about 1 mm larger than the hose ID, which made getting the
hose on there a real chore. The hose is actually expanded over
the fitting and thus provides its own clamping force. Was yours
fairly easy to push on? Is it possible to compare the hose ID with
the fitting at this point?

BTW, I do like the simplified arrangement of that 993 setup. But
it appears that in order to replace the hose section, you would
need to order the entire pair of rails complete! Ouch!

It looks like the 993 line is different. It's not Cohline 370. It has "VRT 993 110 037 04 12x1.5x665PA 11W PTL 14059/02E16W...." written on the hose.

The inner section is very tough plastic, about 1mm thick. The Goodyear 30R9 has a very thin, almost rubber like, inner section.

The inner ID of the stock line is 3/8" which is the same as the 30R9 hose.

I also had a hard time pushing the 30R9 hose onto the rail fir tree fitting.

In my case, the fir tree fitting of the rail has some scratches that I did not notice. Those scrathes tore up the inner section of the 30R9. So now, 2 of my injector has little piece of blue rubber from the 30R9 in it. I'll have to find a shop to see if they cn reverse flush the injectors.

Have you started your car and check for leak yet?

No, probably I will be starting it this weekend.

Gentlemen,

I have been watching this thread with admiration. James, your attention to detail and cleanliness are impressive.

May I suggest that you contact Neil Mangia at the below link and inquire about obtaining the exact Cohline fuel hose? I would be very hesitant to use an SAE size hose on my own engine, for reasons stronger even than originality: the sizes are different, even though they are close, and you don't want different flow or a too-large gap when clamped.

He does not do small quantities but perhaps he has a shipment in the near future.

http://www.newcoproducts.com/cohline/gateway_page.htm

Again, excellent work.

John,
I cannot thank you enough for that reference. I spent several
hours unsuccessfully attempting to locate just such a source.
Whatever the outcome I am more than just grateful for your
assistance.
This is just the reason that I find a group of enthusiasts such
as ours to be truly invaluable. I will be in contact with them first
thing on Monday.

Very best regards,
James

Having hooked up all the drive flanges, elect. plugs, oil and fuel
lines and etc. it is time to fill the fluids.
Tiptronic guys may be interested in this transmission fill method.
Use a new, and dedicated garden spray bottle. Cut the outlet
hose a few inches from the bottle, and push clear plastic hose
over the stub. Fit the Porsche fill fitting at the other end and
start pumping.
Positioned under the car only for the photo, in actual use I sat
outside the R/R wheel-well and could easily see the fill stand-
pipe. Just worked great - when at the level you choose loosen
the cap to dump the pressure.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170717088.jpg
Anthony,
I did get around to starting it up today. Started right up and
sounds nice. There were no fuel leaks. It was off and on several
times as I was filling the tiptronic and the power steering
reservoir- probably about 10 minutes total idle time.
Though the SAE fuel lines seem to be doing just fine, I remain
concerned, given your experience. For that reason, I did follow
up today on the search for German high pressure fuel hose.
First, the Cohline 370 hose which was original to the 964 is
apparently no longer being produced. I talked with Neil Mangia
today (NEWCO PRODUCTS), but it doesn’t look promising. He
does not have what we need in stock, and getting it will require a
20 Meter order. BUT, I have located another source for German
hose. Bel-Metric has high pressure fuel injection hose by
CONTINENTAL. So I have the Conti hose on order in 8 mm and
9.5 mm. I should have it in hand in about a week. Even then I
had to order 5 meters, so there will be plenty also for your
needs, provided it looks like the “right stuff”. I will advise

I did not escape without oil leaks! There is a small leak at the
1-2-3 chain cover and another small leak (pressure) at the 4-5-6
chain tensioner cover.
Also, when I went into the parts bin for an air filter I found that
I had neglected to order any. So I have something to do while I
wait.

James, you probably know this, but just in case. The level for the tip fluid was raised above the imprinted marks by Porsche. Do you have that Service Bulletin information?


It is so clean. How do you keep it like that?

JW,

Congrats on the successful rebuild! Your clean engine makes mine looks like a dumpster.

Anyway, the line seemed to work for you. Let me know how the new lines go, and whether the 30R9 came off easily on your as it did on mine.

---
anthony

Tiptronic levels
 

Steve, I will be refilling my Gbox any day and would be interested if you could mail me a copy of the info or advise what the newer levels are from Porsche for the tiptronic box levels.

thanks
Ian

Good news on the oil leaks. Both are corrected!
After having so carefully flattened the chain case surfaces and
the covers, I had neglected to notice those two caps for the
tensioners. They also are magnesium and neither was flat. After
getting the distributors back out today, so I could see, it was
clear that the 1-2-3 side was also leaking from the tensioner cap
and not from the chain cover. Both flat now and surfaced.
Several more minutes at idle and no leaks anywhere. I will get it
out on the road soon.

Steve - Thanks for a reminder on the Tiptronic oil level; yes, I
have that bulletin included in my WSM. In the photo you can see
where I have added a yellow line for the corrected 80 degree
lower level. The max level line is there too but blocked from view
in the photo.

Ian - They increased the capacity by ½ a liter and that makes the
new lines: New min. level at 3 mm below old max line – New
max. level 15 mm above old max line.

Anthony- I will let you know when the German Fuel Injection hose
arrives.

Good. Just wanted to be sure.
And what did you use to keep everything so clean underneath?

Steve,
I usually use a spray bottle of that Oil Eater cleaner from Costco, along with a bucket of water and sponge.

Thanks, I must get some of that.

thanks guys .

The weather in Vegas must be very kind to cars....in the UK even a new car off the truck is dirtyer than your car James..amazing and an excellant thread.

I will start my full engine rebuild next week ....no reason other than 125Kmiles on the clock and starting to weep alittle.
Its a lot easy to rebuild a working engine than one that has died or went bang!!

Ian

HI Ian which engine are you rebuilding, is it the same as JW's

regards mike

Yep 1992 C2 and Tiptronic

Thanks fellows and Ian – best wishes for your rebuild. I could
not agree with you more that it is due. New rubber, seals, lines
and etc. are certainly appropriate after this many years, never
mind the mileage. These are just wonderful cars to work on, and
I hope you enjoy the experience as much as I have.

BTW I don’t suppose either of you English contributors know of
my friend Norman Geeson of Peterborough? Not likely I suppose,
he is a Rolls/Bentley guy (the best one there is).

I got the new air filters today but still am not ready for the open
road. I knew from the strip-down that something was amiss in
the ignition, for the secondary distributor cap looked like new,
with no evidence whatsoever of current having been through
there. So today I narrowed the search down to a faulty coil, and
will have to wait for a new one (though it runs just fine on the
other).

I have a few other tasks remaining anyway. Front shocks
tomorrow and then new door seals.

James,
Just curious, can you change the crank seal on the crank pulley end without disassembling the engine? Seems like it should be able to, but I haven't seen that type of seal carrier before.

Doug

Doug, If I understand you correctly - the answer is yes.

Assuming that one first gets the exhaust, sheet-metal, heat/noise
shields, pulley and engine hanger out of the way first, then yes
the pulley end oil seal can be changed with the engine still in the
car – but supported from below.

The pulley end seal is a push fit inside the number eight crank
bearing, just as it has always been on 911 engines. The
difference with the 964 is that the crank has a taper nose
extension (added to support the combined pulley/vibration
damper). The old seal can be removed as before, however the
P216 (photo pg. 3 this thread) tool will not help in getting a new
seal installed. The P216 will not accommodate that nose
extension and therefore some other method must be used.

It would be no problem for someone with a metal lathe, to make
up a 216 style tool long enough to clear the nose extension. I
don’t know of such an effort though. Also, this is the only
example I can site, where the Porsche WSM lists a tool (P216a)
for use, which will not actually do the job.

Wow, what a great thread. How did I miss this? I was just reading the section on stud removal. Looks like Christian developed a new device, but his original device worked perfectly on my SC stud.

JWPate, what color is you car. It looks like my wine red?

James,
Thanks for the explanation! Just what I was seeking.

Doug

Yup, the color is wine red. I believe Porsche called it Velvet Red.

OK guys, anyone done new front struts lately? Nothing to do
with the rebuild, but while waiting on the new coil I am replacing
the front shock struts – rear shocks were done while the engine
was out.

Do this exercise, and you will quickly have the strut out and on
the bench. Must be extra careful with the three plastic wire clips.
They will be brittle with age, I just ordered new ones.

When you come to the 22 mm nut at the top of the shock shaft,
be prepared. The WSM allows that “a 7 mm Allen wrench may be
needed to prevent the shaft from turning”. Gee thanks!
Seriously, the special cut-away tool with an Allen wrench are
certainly needed to assemble the new strut – but will be unlikely
to loosen a nut that has been there for years and years. Even if
Otto, the human gorilla, did use a torque wrench to install them,
they will have gone on at 59 pounds. Try to remove them with
the WSM setup and you will need to place an extension arm on
your Allen wrench in order to generate some serious torque –
and then your little 7 mm wrench will break. Ask me how I know
this.

Something more powerful was required and what I ended up
using was a pipe wrench as the quickest expedient. Of course, it
ruins the shock strut, but that item is headed for the trash bin in
any event.

I don’t really need to mention that the pipe wrench is only for the
initial breaking of the joint – obviously you must compress the
spring till loose, before actually removing the nut.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1171064379.jpg
Before you trash the old strut, take the time to measure the
effective length, so you will be able to adjust the new strut to
match.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1171064440.jpg
Once everything is apart and cleaned, the first thing you should
do is cut a ¼ inch notch in the bracket which later will hold the
brake line. Such a notch will permit the brake line to be attached
(or removed) without breaking the hydraulic integrity, and thus
save you a bleed job.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1171064516.jpg
Then building up the new strut is a piece of cake. Use whatever
spring compressors you have access to, and take that new nut to
59 pounds using the tools shown (I used a closed end wrench to
extend leverage on the 7 mm Allen – it will take the spec. torque
without breaking).
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1171064582.jpg

Back in place and again, this part is a cake walk. Do observe the
factory note that the two lower bolts are special items (100 lb.
torque). Either refit the two originals, or if you have lost or
damaged them, then order new factory items – no substitutions.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1171064656.jpg

HIGH PRESSURE FUEL HOSE

Another disappointment today. The shipment of high pressure German fuel injection hose arrived and does not look right. This hose has no inner liner whatsoever – just the same makeup throughout with a fabric cord half way through. It looks like the same hose which I got from our host Pelican.

Sorry, and for me at least, the SAE product looks like a superior hose. As I have had no problems with it, I shall just leave well enough alone.

Again, there just seems to be no practical way to obtain the correct German hose, as original to our cars. I will be in Berlin again later in the year, and see about it then if I don’t forget.

What about just ordering the fuel lines directly from Porsche? (or did I miss that part?)