Jaybird's official 2.7 rebuild thread
 

Well guys, it's time to kick off the official rebuild thread. I'm the proud owner of a nice looking (IMHO) '75 914 1.8. My dream has been to build it into a "supercar" of sorts. Here is a pic of the car.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210002506.jpg

I chassis dynoed the car with the factory 1.8L four--59 rwhp and 70 ft/lb torque. That will never work!! So, for months the debate raged... Jake Raby Massive Type 4, or stuff in a six. After weeks of agony, and staring at the 2.7 six I'd purchased from a fellow pelicanite, I decided that the teardown of the 2.7 would be the deciding factor. So far, the 2.7is winning. I didn't document much in the early going, but I'm down to things that make a difference now. Here sits the motor on the stand sans the left heads/cam tower.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210002742.jpg

When I pulled the heads off, here are the pistons I found.... Definitely not CIS, but what?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210002793.jpg

To be continued......

cont'd
 

The internals of the heads don't appear to be bad, either. No apparent valve damage, piston damage, or serious cracks.....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210003036.jpg

Got awfully freakin' lucky, and found what I believe are Nikasil cylinders... Nice crosshatch pattern, and magnetic.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210003099.jpg

And, if I'm extremely lucky... These will turn out to be time certs or case savers. No pulled or broken head studs....


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210003187.jpg

More tomorrow!!! SmileWavy

Man, this is going fast!!!
 

Well, I thought I might try to get a bit more done today, so I pulled the right side heads/cam towers... then the book says cylinders come off, so.......

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210015456.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210015973.jpg


Wow, that was slick and easy. No binding, warpage, etc... just gentle taps with a rubber mallet, and "whoooosh" they slid right off. Well then, I say to myself, let's at least get started on the pistons... Could take a few hours. I found a tool that I liked better than a screwdriver for the circlips. Harbor Freight pack o' four....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210015587.jpg

No need to whack, coax, etc. Just put the pointy end under the circlip, cover it with your thumb, and it pops right out. I didn't even need to tap the wrist pins. They were snug with no slop, but I just mashed them out with my thumb. I had all the pistons off in under 10 minutes. I can't believe I'm this lucky--gotta have a broken crank or something lurking underneath. All the piston bores looked good to me (novice rebuilder) with no scuffing, etc. So, it's now officially a short block.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210015733.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210016090.jpg


I took the pulley off the end of the crank with a breaker bar, and then moved to the flywheel. I realized I don't have the correct flywheel tool... I'll be ordering it shortly. In the interim, I hosed the flywheel bolts with PB Blaster. Maybe that will give me a head start on them while I wait for the flywheel bolt tool....

More later!

Well, I found myself with a few more hours to work on the motor today. I'm still trying to run down the 12pt-12mm tool for the flywheel bolts. So, I thought I'd tackle the head/rocker arm/camshaft disassembly. The rocker pinch bolts were torqued down pretty hard, and were crusty. They came loose with some gentle persuasion, and came out with no major issues. Here is a pic of the left side camshaft coming out of the housing after the rockers were removed....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210092867.jpg

I knew I was due for my first "bummer" of the rebuild :( I have some pitting on a couple of the camshaft lobes, so I guess it's off for a regrind...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210092939.jpg

After removing the camshaft, and the last six nuts that can't be reached with the rockers on, I was able to remove the heads. It took a bit of tapping on the studs to get the heads to drop free. Here is the left side completely disassembled.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210093127.jpg

As always... more to follow!

Check with NAPA, they should have the 12mm 12pt its a common tool used on many american head bolts. Part# NBDM1212 $7.79

Porsche mechanic shop rate= $125/hr...... Factor of two for the dealership to make any money...... Wise advice from fellow pelicanites=priceless!!! Got the first three done in under five minutes. (Don't fret over the angle of the wrench.... I had to let it hang to do the photo )

Quote:
Originally Posted by KTL
Jaybird,

As far as removal, have you tried getting at the flywheel screws through the end of the yoke? My yoke is hollow so that's how I get to the flywheel screws on the stand.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210195517.jpg

Nice 914. A stock CIS 2.7 will move it around pretty good, but your's is not stock. Based on the pistons you have in there, (definitely not CIS....a decent dome and valve cutouts, so i expect higher compression and E or S cams or the equivalent.) Check the pistons and cams for part numbers and post them so we can help you to verify what they are. somebody has been in there before and....who knows ....you may have the makings of a nice 2.7 hotrod engine which will seriously wake up your 914. Nice project....good luck.

regards,

al

2.7 rebuild inspiration
 

here's some 2.7 hotrod engine inspiration for you.
JE 9.5:1 pistons, E-cams, SSI's, Dansk 2in-1out sport muffler, Weber 40 IDAs
have fun with your project.....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210345420.jpg

Al,
Thanks for the words of encouragement.... The cams are marked

911.105.143.OR

and the pistons= Mahle 90 P 27 W2

Can you advise?

I think those are a 911S CIS cam from 74-77. The back of Wayne's book has an appendix of cam part numbers. They are not exactly taking advantage of those pistons valve pocket clearance.

2.7
 

Yes, i would be glad to help. Others will chime in for the often required sanity check.

Cams = 74-77 2.7S cams (CIS cams)
Pistons = these may be the Euro 2.7S pistons...These are not high comp, (still 8.5:1), but are a nice upgrade over CIS pistons as will allow the use of some hotter cams such as E or early S....will have to check the Mahle p/ns and get back to you.

regards,

al

Yep,
Hotter cams are definitely in order. I will either be going with an "E" camshaft from John Dougherty, or Jamie Novak has a spare set of Crane 296 cams that have a profile that I like. With that said, I'm going to need to refurbish the rockers--who would you recommend for that? Which leads me to my next dilemma....

Split the case, or no? So far, the engine appears to have been gone through fairly recently. All of the wrist pins were snug with no noticeable wear. The crank spins very smoothly in the case, and there is no axial slop. Both CGarr and JPNovak have said that splitting the case may be more headache than it's worth. I'm doing the rebuild on the cheap, and this would definitely save both time and cash to leave it alone. Case savers are already done... Original oiling system (no bypass mod). Balancing is one of the things that still has me thinking. Can I just turn the flywheel, and hope that it doesn't throw things too far out of balance? If I can get through that issue, I probably won't split the case. As the car is a road warrior (3k-6k rpm), the balance issue may not affect me as much as a racer/AX'er.
The last concern is if I don't split the case, how do I get it clean? I guess it's either do it with rags, and try to keep gunk out of the inside of the case, or try to find a way to seal the cylinder registers in the case.... I guess I could slip the cylinders back in, and snug them up with sockets on the studs--that might do it. All your thoughts are warmly welcomed!!!!

Yes! your pistons are Euro 8.5/1 cr. Good for carbs or MFI. Ck. to see that no more than .003 taper in cly's so you can rering.
CIS will work but my experience is the top intake boot will hold the 914 engine lid open @ 1inch. Another reason to go to carbs?
You need to get the CIS cam's reground anyway so get a mild carb grind, ie; "E" spechs.
Looks like you DO NOT have case savers from the picture. I recommend 2nd over size savers!
I also recommend Dow Corning 730 sealant for the head to cam tower sealing area's. ALOHA

Very hard to tell if there are inserts in that case. Can you scrub one really clean and take a good macro photo? Then we might be able to tell. If I had to pick, I'd say 'no' you don't have them.

There is really not any such thing as a rebuild 'on the cheap' on a 2.7 motor. You'll either pay now, or you'll pay later, but you'll pay.

I have a 2.7 that I bought as a finished zero-mile longblock. Turns out it was a pretty sloppily-done rebuild; I thought I would just tear it apart and re-seal it. Not so much.

Here's what a "$500 reseal" ended up costing:

pistons/cylinders $1,100
case work - 1st time $650
case work - 2nd time $650
replace case (1st one junk) $300
misc. machine work $300
rebuild heads $1,000
hard parts for rebuild $1,250
11-blade fan $175
upgrade alternator $175
backdate HEs w/good used $250
upgrade idler arms, valve covers, chain housings $250
install factory hardlines & aftermarket radiator cooler $1,000
repair and overhaul CIS $150
replace crank (found a nicer one though mine was good) $200
machine flywheel $70
replace starter $175
Grand Total $7,695

Nevermind the $1,000 on the 915 rebuild "while I was in there", or the $500 clutch pack...

Yes, If I haven't mentioned it before now, I have a set of Weber 40's that will go on the car... I'll scrub the base area on one of the studs, and take a good macro photo.

I rebuilt my 2.7L this past winter after 7 years of thrashing it at autocross......I did the build back then also.

I got a very nasty surprise. I had the crank turned to first under back then and split the case this time only to get at an oil leak on the #8 bearing. The innards looked lovely and I was a happy camper till I priced the rod & main bearings......good God!!!
The exact number escapes me (or I've blotted it out), but they were well over $1K, IIRC. Fortunately I has a couple STD/STD cranks and had both polished ($110), picked the best & got on with it.

Your pics show you have some kind of inserts on the case for the head studs....they look like case savers to me, but timecerts are a possibility. Either way, unless you have an overriding reason to split the case, I wouldn't fuss with it.

I got 198hp & 190 ft.lbs (after about 30 minutes of break in time) on a chassis dyno from the latest iteration.....and the motor seemed to pick up more power after 10-12 AX passes. Not a supercar (my 914 is a sows ear) but a very good AXer.;)

Jaybird, how about a better picture of the 'inserts'. Your pics look a lot like my 2.7 case, and I didn't think it had inserts.

Dion

OK, Inserts or not....
 

Ok, here are macros..... Inserts or not? Maybe I'll post a poll... After examining several of them closely, I believe they are. It doesn't appear to me that they are consistent enough to be cast in that manner. I look forward to your replies!
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210520343.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210520362.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210520380.jpg

It may be just a helicoil type insert. A casesaver would cut further into the cylinder base sealing surface.

Looks like you have timecerts to me. i've used them in two 2.7 rebuilds and they have worked well.

al

You have a virgin case. Nothing appears to have been done to the head studs threads in the case. If you have no pulled studs you are starting with the best case scenario! Again I recommend 2nd oversize case savers if you can get them. ist over size will probably last for very long time as well if only option. Aloha

For comparison purposes, I just took a pic of my 7R case without the studs. I believe this is a virgin case too, but it does have the appearance of some kind of insert. Why would it look like this if the threads are machined into the case?

Dion
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210523989.jpg

Agreed, that's a virgin case. Did you already start removing studs? A couple of the studs pictured are not threaded deep enough to be at 135mm.

A pic of a well-cleaned surface would really help clear this up.

If you can get one stud out, stick a magnet down there and check the threads.

Confirmed, mine didn't stick to a magnet.

D

Is this trouble, or not????:confused:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210601695.jpg

What? You talking about the texture of the casting? No, no trouble.

Fuggit... split the case
 

When in doubt... SPLIT IT!!! Got pissed off over all the agony, and said to hell with it. Glad I did.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210610456.jpg

Looks like the main bearings have some discoloration or pitting from sitting up for several years, as well as a bit of scoring....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210610561.jpg

and now, the $25,000 question... are these standard, or oversize? If they're standard, I think I'll go ahead with the rebuild. If they're oversize, I've heard they're ungodly expensive, and I may part it out and go back to a stroker type 4.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1210610842.jpg

That bearing actually looks pretty good, all things considered.

I can't find that part number - can you put a caliper on the bearing and give a measurement of the thickness?

Bearings measure 2.46 - 2.50 mm. or .096-.097" What do you think?

the "00" at the end means -----> STD/STD

Have the case checked carefully for bore, etc. My webs had areas where there was obvious movement. I'm having only two shuffle pins placed in the middle.

Good pictures - I'm doing a similar rebuild using two engines and EBay.


The magnet test for headstud inserts is what my machinist used to quickly answer that question.

Agree w/NMT. Those should be standard/standard. The case bore is about 62mm, and the main bearing bore is about 57mm, so half the difference is right around 2.5mm. Right on the money with your measurements. If your bore were larger or your crank were smaller (or both), your bearings would need to be bigger.

Also, the factory 'symbol' stamped on the bearing suggests this is the original set of bearings.

Are you up to speed on the care and feeding of mag 911 engine cases? You'll need to take (or ship) the case to someone who is very familiar with the measuring/qualifying and servicing of these cases.

Yep, it's being boxed up with the heads and shipped to CGarr for measurement/machine work.

Disassembly is complete!!!! Now, since I don't want to send Craig a filthy case to work on, how is the best way to clean the empty case? I've heard so many horror stories about media blasting clogging the oil passages that I know better than to do that. Can I just submerge the whole side of the case in a pan of Diesel and go to town with a brush? I just want to make sure that I don't do anything to potentially clog or get grit into my oil passages that I later can't get out. As always, your thoughts are appreciated!!! ONWARD TO REASSEMBLY!!

Check out this thread http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/401809-media-blasting-heads-input-needed.html

Looks like an ultrasonic cleaning cabinet with water, mild detergent, and some citrus cleaner is a good way to clean parts without damage.

Soda blasting seems to be more of a fine cleaning than other media like sand.

Well.... good news today from the machine shop. I just got back from having my cylinders measured, and they all have less than .001" taper (most were around 0.0005"). So it looks like they're good candidates for the scotchbrite/re-ring treatment. I still need to measure the top ring gap to make sure they're within spec, but most everything else has had almost no wear. I was asking the machinist about parts cleaning--like if they had a soda blaster--and he recommended a high pressure parts washer that they have. I asked if it was safe for aluminum/magnesium, and he said it was completely non-caustic. Anyone have experiences--good or bad? The box with the case and heads is on the porch waiting for FedEx pickup. The goals for the week are to get the cams/lifters out to John Dougherty for inspection and regrinding. Also, I hope to get the rods off the crank, and have the crank polished and measured. I'm going to let the local machinist measure the rods as well..... More later!

OK Gang,
Here is a pic of one of my main journals--do I really need to strip the crank and have it micropolished? I set the crank up on the flywheel to start stripping it down. Here again, I find myself asking... is this really necessary? From your comments, the main bearings had negligible wear. When I spin the rods on the crank, they are literally buttery smooth. No wiggle, no slop. I'm beginning to wonder how many miles this motor had on it since the rebuild. Your thoughts are always welcome....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1211294443.jpg

Hi All,
Well, things are finally picking up steam again toward reconstruction. I am at the stage where I need to have the rotating assembly balanced prior to sealing up the short block. Here are my questions.... I'm using an early 911 flywheel. How many alignment pins are there supposed to be on the flywheel. The pressure plate and the flywheel have holes for three pins, but I have only two. You can see the two pins at approximately 5 and 9 o'clock in the photo. Maybe the machine shop lost one when they pulled them out to surface the flywheel??? See pic.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1217515036.jpg

Second, do I need to install the "ring" from the later model flywheel under the bolts? There is a depression for this "ring" under the bolts on the 2.7 flywheel. There is no such depression on the early flywheel. Do I need washers under the bolts?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1217515172.jpg

Last, what type of bolts do I need to use to secure the pressure plate to the flywheel? Will standard grade 8 steel work?

Thanks tons, guys!!!

--jaybird

We're underway again!!! I picked up my freshly balanced rotating assembly last friday. At last, all the machine work is done. I finally got to pull the trigger on the rebuild kit that had been sitting in my pelican parts shopping cart for six months. I told myself that I wouldn't order anything for the rebuild until it was time for reassembly. Blew the whole wad this morning--to the tune of $1500 in parts. I'll try to post some pics of the reassembly once I get underway late next week. See you all soon!!

Nice Jay, where did you get the balancing done? Was it local?

I guess I need to speed up my assembly. I still have a transmission to complete after the motor is done.