3.0 SC Tear down 4-5-6 RATTLE FOUND...BEGINNING REBUILD

[relayswitcher]

Showing this in hopes it will help someone else. I'm not a perfect human, but I learn fast. And I don't know it all but glad for what I do.
Here's the CATCH UP: Heard rattle on right side top end. Sounded like chain tensioners. Had an extra Carrera / 930 Oil fed tensioner set and put it on. Noise remained and persisted. Opened up the valve covers nothing looked loose. So popped the engine out. Bought an extra LONG ARM jack. I always prefer to remove the engine AND transmission with car level about 32" off the ground. I do this as not to strip the 4 engine mount screws.... which you'll do if you do it at an angle. If you can do it with an angle, you are then more talented than myself.
With the 2 long arm jacks I can easily place engine on the "spider arm" yoke..... I know I know... but I don't like calling it "multi-armed". And C'mon, it does look like spider legs.

First thing I did was remove the 4-5-6 side top end down to the barrels. Found intake valve marking on top of #5 piston. So either the Piston wrist pin was loose OR the rod big end was spinning a bearing. Of course I found the latter to be true. Bearing is fried. So here's a photo of things so far and I'm splitting the case this week.












Case is not surprisingly clean because does only have 70k on it.


I'll be posting for a while I guess. Hope to hear from you guys along the way...and glad to share any info I have on this build.

RelaySwitcher / JOSH

[Bobboloo]

Ouch! At least you caught this before the rod let go.

Any idea on the cause? Low oil pressure? Blocked oil gally?

[relayswitcher]

I hadn't driven the car for awhile... a few months or more I guess. Very Busy in May & June. Then gone to Egypt and Greece and the Greek yislands for almost a month, July. (Did you know that Egypt's gasoline is $1.07 per gallon US dollars?) Anyway, I decided one Saturday morning early August to drive to Palm Springs 20 minutes each way for breakfast. Hopped in the car and took the top off.... not in that order and drove off. It was only 79 degrees out when I left the
house. There's well known phenomenon that when you get past the Morongo Indian Casino on the way to P.S. that the temp rises about 10 degrees at any given time the sun is out. So by the time I was finished hanging out at an outdoor cafe it was about 112 degrees on the way home going west. And half way home I decided to punch it up, since it had been sitting, to blow out any engine gunk or residue from having sat. I popped it up to about 120mph for only 20 seconds and it sounded fine...... until I got to my home exit and as I turned the corner the car rattled on the right side. The engine idled perfectly as I got settled in my driveway. Then no noise. Thought at first it was a tail grille and it was lose and tightened it up and went around the block and no more noise until I made the turn into the driveway again. And the rest you know, if you read the opening paragraph on this thread.
What I'm running in my head over and over is being only 70K on this engine. Should I replace the just the crank (buy good used crank, and regrind journal #5 if that's possible) and then place new rod, main and intermediate shaft bearings and leave the rest alone with good cleaning of everything.... because there is likely # 5 rod bearing particles every where in this puppy. Pistons are all fine, haven't checked the jugs for oval yet. I was thinking replace small rod end bearings, too. I don't have tons of cash today so why buy what I don't really need and with care I can get another 130k out of the engine. It was built by a pro shop in Riverside for the owner who I bought it from with 20k on it. He swapped out this motor for a 3.2 from a customer who bought a 3.6. My point is this was a well done motor. Studs are solid and case is very clean except where the oil cooler leak an oil ghost flames design all on the bottom of the case.
What do you guys think?

Here's the car after going to shop to have the rockers checked before I pulled the engine out. 1976 Targa. I had the metal flares place on the back so I could run 16"s. I have 205/55s front and 225/50s back. I've been the whole gambit of tires... Parrellis are the worst, Yokahama didn't fair much better. Good Year Eagle II s were good but too expensive. I'll place a pic of my existing tires later.... I can't seem to think of the name right now...lol. Pete Santini from Westminster attached the metal flares. He had a set sitting on the wall taken from an SC that went 930 flares all around. So these on my car are real metal German flares not some fiberglass job. Pete Santini is oftened featured on TV's " OverHaulin' ". The tail is an anthentic 1976 Carrera tail. The engine is a 1982 SC 3.o litre.

Also, someone got MURDERED for this car back when it was only 2 months old, but that's another story which I will post a thread later this week.

[relayswitcher]

Originally Posted by Bobboloo

Ouch! At least you caught this before the rod let go.

Any idea on the cause? Low oil pressure? Blocked oil gally?

I forgot to answer about the cause.... When I drained oil it was very low. Only a few qts.
So when I was making corners the oil went to the left of the engine. Friends say usually #2 and #5 are the last to get oil. I think the oil cooler hose was very lose, too. At least this is the theory of what might have happened. What was surprising is nothing looks burnt or brown or even heat blueing, just shiny metal look. I must have caught it just in time like you said. JOSH

[Bobboloo]

If you can find a good used std. crank for a reasonable price then that would be my choice. If not, depending on the level of damage, you can grind .25 under for oversize bearings. Just be aware that oversize bearings cost a bundle. I don't know if you can grind just one bearing and still balance the crank but maybe one of the gurus here can answer that.

You can send you oil cooler(s) to Ultrasonic Cleaning in Carson to have them cleaned out. Some people however believe that it's not possible to clean coolers after an engine failure.

Since your motor is not original to the car you might want to consider parting it out and buying a good used motor. You'll come out ahead money wise. If on the other hand you enjoy the process and you want a new motor then go for it.

[relayswitcher]

Hey Bobby. Nice hearing from you and appreciate your slant on things. And keep on doing so. Just so you know what my experience is.... I have rebuilt about 5 motors over the last 6 years and usually 2.7L's. This will be my first 3.o but not that much different in the process except for the obvious things like jug size and the number of bolt holes on the end of the crank. The CIS is pretty much the same, too. I understand completely about the crank mains and rods getting rather expensive when you go oversize because I did have to at one time and it cost me about $398 for the mains back in 2003. I suppose they are allot more now. I usually buy gaskets and bearings from EBSracing in Reno, NV because some things you can get one of. They really know their stuff and very helpful. I did and will still do any machine work with Ollie's Automotive Machining in Santa Ana, but you might have heard they moved last month to Lake Havasu, AZ. They have allot of things shipped to them anyway and so why not AZ . Their lease was up and now they have less to pay out and tons more space. They are only about 2 more hours away from me instead of the 1 hour it used to be. ( Well, one hour in the Targa anyway,LOL.)
The engine didn't quit and there's really no need to part it out, that's the farthest thing from my mind, actually. And actually I do enjoy the process. Have the tools and.... I'm okay with it all.
What else does this Ultrasonic Cleaning in Carson do besides the coolers? I grew up in Wilmington and Torrance and then it became Carson after I left for college. Are you from that area, too.
Regards, RelaySwitcher / josh

[Bobboloo]

I heard about Ollies' moving but I had no idea it was to Lake Havasu. Last time I used Ollies' they were cash only. I guess things change. It's good to know they have enough business to be able to make a change like that and still stay in business. Kudos to them.

I understand wanting to rebuild. I like fixing things and can't help myself even when I know it's not fiscally smart in doing so.

Ultrasonic Cleaning I'm sure does other things but I believe the bulk of their business is oil coolers for airplane engines.

I'm from Texas originally but have lived in the Los Angeles area for about 20 years.

If you decide to build on that crank I have a complete set of .25 oversize rod bearings I bought a couple years back to hang on to just in case I might ever need them. I'd be willing to part with a pair.

[relayswitcher]

I'm splitting the case later today and I'll have a better idea as to what I need. I will seriously keep your offer in mind about the .25 bearings. When you say "a pair", are you talking just doing the one journal. Chances are if the #5 bearing shed particle size pieces around I may want to surface micro polish the whole crank.... or if I decide to get a used crank do you know off hand what a good used one would run?

[relayswitcher]

Well I'm back folks. I finally got around to splitting the case open and have a few things to show you.
And some interesting things I didn't know before.
And a couple of questions, too. So enjoy and would like
to hear from you all, near and far.

A small copper mallet used with a light touch works well in getting things loosened up.



This is my first 3.0 but have done 2.7s....there isn't a sender on the 2.7 what is this?


The pro shop that built this engine found that 2 barrel head nuts are the exact height needed to support the back accelerator support plate under the air shroud. (Man, that was a mouth full. Good thing I have a picture.


I find that when taking off the little extras on the case that the front makes an excellent tool rack.


I guess it's easy to tell where the rest of #5 rod bearing ended up.

And......


I use an arm of the yoke for leverage to loosen the clutch plate bolts. Hard to explain with a photo, but trust me it works great.


And I use this method to loosen the flywheel bolts. Works for me.


Got it apart no problems. Ran out of time today and will remove the other 5 rods and mic all the crank journals tomorrow.... Columbus Day!!!


I use these and of course my copper mallet to get it apart. The sharp needle tool is excellent for getting those greasy stick washers that are hard to get off.


I will post more tomorrow if I can. RelaySwitcher

[otto in norway]

Good job!
Keep it up, but remember to "hurry slowly" to avoid forgetting things or making mistakes...

[relayswitcher]

I got the case parted on Sunday and all went well. No #5 bearing residue. After hearing the rattle on the 4-5-6 bank side I drove only around the block and may be why not so damaged. I stop the car and did not drive it again.

Gears look good. Distributor gear has a little issue that I'm sure happened when I tried too hard to stick the distributor back in after installing the Carrera oil fed tensioner sets. ( You have to remove the distributer in order to get a wrench the oil line positioned directly behind it.)

Here are the measurements I get. Don't know if my micrometer is all that great.... it's digital reading. A mechanic pro friend says that it looks like a polish is all I'll need if these are good measurements are correct.

WHAT DO YOU GUYS OUT THERE THINK JUST OFF HAND? ALSO, ANY CRANK PLACES NEAR RIVERSIDE, CA THAT YOU CAN RECOMMEND? OLLIE'S MOVED TO LAKE HAVASU CITY, AZ & I'll still use them for sure measure things, but for a quick local crank check where do you think?

Crankshaft journals Starting from pully end down.

Mains: Chart says allowances are [ 59.971-59.990]
59.970
59.950
59.960
59.970
59.710 not sure this is correct
59.970


Rods: Chart says allowances are [51.971-51.990]
52.950
52.960
52.890 This is the #5 bearing spin out
52.940
52.960

My computer security company...






#5 journal doesn't look or feel as bad as when measured through the barrel hole.


Ready for a pressure wash.


Check out what I found in a 76 911S Coupe I bought rebuilt and sold a few years ago. Hard to believe this is a relic now, but the plastic containers with spout IS much better.


This and 3 others like him is the reason I didn't get to my engine sooner. I had to trap them so the coyotes wouldn't get them first..... and there were of couple of those wiley characters lurking aroung.... big as German Shepherds. Also a raccoon big as German Shepherd, too. No I'm not joking.

[Flieger]

Awww...

Are you adopting them all?

[relayswitcher]

Hey, Max .... good to hear from you.... No actually I can't adopt because I can't adapt. I was wanting to keep 2 of the 4 and spay the mother, but I was fooling myself about being allergic to cats. I caught 2 last Friday night and some friends took them to tame and will most likely give away after they quit wanting to bite you hand off. Poor little guys are just scared. All they've ever know (well for 4 wks anyway) is the bottom of my classic I'll soon build and some big alien (human me) feeding them and their momma. The other 2 and the mother I haven't caught have disappeared for 2 days now. We had a bad wind and cat's get spooked with wind. Hope they aren't gone for good. I think between the wind, coyotes, their 2 sibs now missing, and the car cover not covering the bottom edge of the Malibu very well after the wind.... they may have decided to move elsewhere. I like cats regardless of the allergy. It was mostly to rescue them. People are turning their pets into the SPCA and Humane Society because they can't afford to feed them anymore.... and medical and shots. They euthanized 5,000,000 cats last year. I didn't like that. Here are some pics. Since they were born under my '65 Chevy Malibu SS I named them Mally, Bu, Chevy, and Starface. Starface is the photo in previous reply.

BU


Chevy & Mally


Anyway..... back to Porsche engines. What do you think about my tolerance measurements. Am I correct about just a polish and back to std std? I hope that's the case.

[Flieger]

Kudos to you for your kindness to animals.

I have no machine shop experience so I cannot comment on the tolerances. The #5 seems a little far out to me. The others are pretty even if a little off factory new spec. Maybe you can use only 1 odd sixe bearing, like with the GT3 cranks?

Where's Henry Schmidt or Steve@Rennsport?

[relayswitcher]

Actually, I did some reading tonight and pulled out the Porsche Factory manuals. I looked in the engine volume lll / Workshop Manual 911/ engine-clutch- fuel. Assembly group 1, 2. Model '72 onward.

My engine is a 1981 SC engine. I looked up the crank tolerances and guess what. Wayne's book has a mistake in it.
He has crankshaft rod journals for 3.O SC at tolerances @ std. [ 51.971 - 51.990 ] but the German Workshop Manual reads [ 52.971 - 52.990 ] So I'm within tolerances, BUT my #5 is BELOW tolerance at 52.890 . I will that one again tomorrow. Can that one journal be built up again and ground to standard again. Or ground down and an over size bearing used?

[relayswitcher]

Evidently the mistake in the rod tolerance numbers in the book were found and addressed earlier by Wayne in the opening part of this engine forum. Today I went hunting for a matching rod replacement. Found one from my friend's shop in Riverside. Paid $50 for it. I think that's good deal considering the gasoline I'd have to use going to L.A. or Orange County to find one.? Anyone know what they are new? Can you even get only one or have to buy a set? Also, got a lead from him on a machine shop for redoing my crankshaft. I'm going to have them build up the #5 rod journal and regrind to std std and have the rest micro polished since that are all in tolerance ranges for std..

[relayswitcher]

I contacted the crankshaft place today and they seemed reasonably priced, but the fact of the matter is I had a little inner voice saying before you go and spend $175 to build up #5 journal again, $150. to re-nitrate the entire crankshaft, and $140. to pull the oil squirter plugs and drill for replacements, plus $60. each way to ship I'll be at almost $500 and have to wait 3-4 weeks to get it all back..... call around and maybe you can get lucky and pick up a good used std/std for a deal. Seems the going price is around $600 to a deluxe everything with cross drillings etc. $1700 from a shop. Saw one for $800 on the forum but never got a call back.
Sure enough, though, I found a 3.0 crank for $450 and it mics std std and doesn't need polishing.... ready to go right now. It's a '78 and mine is an '81. The pilot bearing is a little different and can work with a couple of washers under the flywheel bolts holding it in place they say..... otherwise he will find me a '78 crank and trade me out. Crank wasn't hard to find. I just went to the same place I found I the rod replacement yesterday. So, as I get some extra money coming in, I will get the gaskets and bearings and start the bottom end. Got a lot of cleaning and etc. to do in the meantime. Regards to all, Relayswitcher




By the way, here is a little something I made up and posted on the tech forum.
This comes in handy keeping track of what went where on re-assembly. This one has my numbers, but there's a blank one further down you can highlite, copy, and paste to your computer. I've had some positive feedback on this from a few people. Hope it's helpful to you as well.

[relayswitcher]

Correction: I meant to say, " .... find me a '78 FLYWHEEL and trade me out."

[Bobboloo]

Would have loved to sell you the over-sized bearings I have but you came to the right decision.

Make sure your oil squirters work before you reassemble. You don't want to have to pull the motor again because of any debris left behind.

Also check the spray bars in the cam carriers. If there's blockage you'll have to go after it.

[Flieger]

Good move. Can you sell the old crank to a machine shop as a rebuild candidate?