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Estimate Cost on Rebuild

I am in the process of debating to complete the rebuild myself or contract it out. Obviously, it is a time/money analysis.

The engine is a 2.7 that will remain stock except exhaust. I have 6 good Alusil Cylinders that the shop is recommending be plated Nikasil. I have a good case, std std shaft, good cams. I need new valve guides but the valves look good. The heads are in good shape.

So, I guess I am looking at the cost to plate the cylinders and put new valve guides in the heads. On top of that, I know there are many other cost (such as bearings and gaskets). Any rough estimates on what it should cost me to do the work and what I should expect to pay a good shop to do the work?

Old 08-19-2009, 12:52 PM
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:38 PM
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You have covered the costs that are associated with any 911 engine rebuild. In addition you have to factor in the cost associated with a mag case 2.7 engine. These include line boring (including very expensive oversize bearings, unless your shop can do the shave the case trick), case savers, new studs (I recommend 993 dilivar, others disagree), oil bypass mod, and newer oil pump (not needed for 76 or 77 engine). These items will cost around 2000-3000 dollars on top of what you had for the "any 911 rebuild". This is why so many people switch to a 3.0 engine.

-Andy
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Old 08-19-2009, 02:53 PM
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I have a 2.7 as well and have been asking around w/the same question recently. As Andy said, w/a 2.7, you're costs are immediately $2K higher because of the required additional machining to the case. I am also learning that if you have a reputable Porsche engine builder do the work for you, you could very quickly run up a $12K+ tab. And that's for a stock rebuild. I'm sure that prices will vary widely if you shop around. My advice would be to make some calls and get first hand info. Something else that is helpful is to take a few minutes and go through the engine rebuild wizard here on Pelican Parts. It's amazing how quickly you cart gets filled and how much just the basic hard costs of a rebuild really are - even if you do it yourself.

Let us know what you decide to do!
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:03 PM
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The case is straight and doesn't require any work other case savers. It is a 76 engine and the oil pump is fine. I don't buy into the "you have 2.7 so get a 3.0". The 3.0 has headstud problems, case issues, chain tensioner issues, etc.

I guess I am trying to get some numbers on P&C work and valve guide work.
Old 08-19-2009, 04:18 PM
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Last time I had the inserts done, the drill, tap amd insert was $350 plus studs and I pulled the old ones. Thats some time ago because I dont recommend doing a 2.7 because the residule value, regardless of the paper work is still around $1000 where the 3.0 rebuildable is $2500
Valve job and new guides, no valves will run $350 to 700 if the sealing surfaces have to be fly cut because the heads are warped from loose studs.
Still need to buy new springs, valve seals are in the gasket set.
Bruce
Old 08-19-2009, 06:07 PM
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Couple of thoughts to maybe add to the confusion.

I have a couple broken head studs. After balancing time and money I brought it to a nice shop here in socal. They have been great so far. Spending tons of time there crawling through the parts. Asking tons of questions. Mechanic is extremely helpfull and patient.

The engine is completely disassembled and at first glance it appears daunting.

Guess what. It doesnt appear to be rocket science.

I think the only way you can screw it up is if you are in a hurry.

In retrospect I wish I had done it myself.

Would have saved the labor money been able to do some other things.

The folks on pelican are so helpfull its ridiculous.

Just my honest opinion.
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Old 08-20-2009, 04:51 AM
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My 2 cents... I had my 3.0 liter rebuild by a local shop. I wanted someone with experience doing the job, I wanted a warranty on the motor and I wanted a reliable 200k engine. I also wanted some upgrades and I was sure that was going to make the job a bit more confusing for a novice engine builder like myself. So I went with the shop. The job ran about 12K but that included alot of new parts.. New mahle max moritz 3.2 p/c's, new carrera oil pump, new oil cooler, 964 cams, new valves, springs, SSI's etc then tag on a clutch and 'while I'm in there' and it goes on and on. I recall the labor being around 4 K. Long story short I think it was worth the expense. I still would like to build an engine at some point but I think I will take that plunge with a track car.
As for the issues with 3.0 liter motors...I had none, no head stud issues, no case issues, no tensioner issues. I do think the the 3.0 liter case makes a better candidate for a rebuild but l can understand wanting to keep the proper engine in the car.
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Old 08-20-2009, 05:36 AM
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I don't know where you live, but in southern california I am paying 4500.00 plus parts.
I have a 2.7 as well. I am sure mine will get up there in price.
I am currently waiting for my mechanic to get back to me with an estimate, I am only doing that because I am going to try to hold him to it. Wish me luck. The old ' while your in there" thing is pretty scary.

I am going twin plugged , new cammed, new P and C s, and PMOs.

Tell you the truth, I would pay somebody with experience to do it.To do it yourself will give you a little experience, but what for. It's not like you are going to be building another one next week.
If you have the time and tools, it would be interesting and fun. If not, you will spend a lot of money on tools that you won't need again for 20 years.

Good luck with whatever you choose.
Old 08-20-2009, 06:35 PM
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Tell you the truth, I would pay somebody with experience to do it.To do it yourself will give you a little experience, but what for. It's not like you are going to be building another one next week.
Paying a pro to do it certainly has benefits - peace of mind, warranty, etc.

However, you must understand the value of doing it yourself. You gain an incredible amount of knowledge during the rebuild process. This knowledge will be ingrained in your skull and used for the rest of the time that you own the car. You become intimate with your machine and you gain immeasurable confidence in tackling other repairs (especially doing the routine work such as valve adjustments and fuel system troubleshooting). It is a journey that has ups and downs but it is a fun ride that you will never forget. Every time you get in the car you will smile, reflect on your hard work, think "I rebuilt a Porsche engine" and the drive will be all the sweeter.

Trust me. It is much more than putting an engine together. It is about character, patience, hard work, sweat, blood, conquering, etc. It is priceless.

That being said ... I wavered quite a bit before making the decision to rebuild my engine. I took the plunge only after a local Pelican agreed to be my coach. He really came through during the particularly difficult stages of assembly (pistons, cam timing, engine removal and install, etc). He was always available on the phone to answer the little questions along the way. Without his help and this forum it would not have been possible. If you can find someone local to lend a hand, I'd say dig in!

No, I won't be rebuilding the engine again anytime soon. But I'll relish this one for the rest of my days.
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Old 08-21-2009, 05:31 PM
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MCA...you hit the nail on the head.

I rebuilt my first 911 engine (2.7L) back in 1995 when I first got out of college. Finances being what they were...I had no choice. I learned a lot and you do really gain an intimate understanding of your car. Fast forward 12 years to 2007, another opportunity presented itself to rebuild a 911 engine. This time my 3.6L 993 engine. I had no problem diving right into this engine based on my experience with the 2.7L engine. Funny thing happened . I thought the 3.6 was going to be more complicated and difficult to rebuild. I found the opposite. As years go by, Porsche has constantly updated and redesigned their engines for ease of manufacturing/assembly. I absolutely enjoyed rebuilding those engines and wouldn't have it any other way. I say dive in. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised how everything just makes sense when you put it back together again.
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Old 08-21-2009, 06:24 PM
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Also consider your lifestyle. It is certainly an invaluable learning experience, but make sure you have the time to spend on it. That will be time on research, reading books and searching all of the excellent information on this board (and making decisions on things where even the experts disagree.) Of course, you need to have the time and space to tear it all apart and put it together. While some have been able to work hard on it and complete it in a relatively short time, I found, after reading many threads, that a bunch of these rebuild projects take many months to complete. Just something else to consider as you make your decision...
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Old 08-22-2009, 09:03 AM
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I didn't know you could have alusils coated with Nikasil. Is this really possible. When i did my rebuild 20 years ago I had to get new Nikasil P&c.
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Old 08-22-2009, 09:29 AM
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The decision to rebuild is not all about the money. I like the challenge and the ability to learn about the engines. Since I am basically restoring this car myself (except paying someone to paint it), I am going to do the rebuild. I don't care if it takes 3-5 months. I already have the engine torn down to the case. I will be splitting the case in the next week or so. I have another long block that has 4 really good P&Cs, Good Cam, Heads, Straight Case, and Std. Std. crank. So I am already ahead of the game in my eyes. Thanks for the support. I will be asking a ton of questions over the next 3 months.
Old 08-22-2009, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadel001 View Post
The decision to rebuild is not all about the money. I like the challenge and the ability to learn about the engines. Since I am basically restoring this car myself (except paying someone to paint it), I am going to do the rebuild. I don't care if it takes 3-5 months. I already have the engine torn down to the case. I will be splitting the case in the next week or so. I have another long block that has 4 really good P&Cs, Good Cam, Heads, Straight Case, and Std. Std. crank. So I am already ahead of the game in my eyes. Thanks for the support. I will be asking a ton of questions over the next 3 months.
Hmmmm, I thought it was a time/money analysis....
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Old 08-23-2009, 01:50 AM
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to rebuild or not to rebuild

I took my SC into a shop to try and find an evasive oil drip. Not a serious leak, but it dripped onto the heater box. And that made S & S (smoke and stink). The shop kept my car for a couple of days and did a "comprehensive" list of what needed to be done. Along with that list came a written estimate of around $5,000. The cost of road testing, writing the estimate, etc. turned out to be $2,000+. Needless to say I was pissed and did not do the work there. Now I'm into this little leak/drip for over $2,000 and it isn't fixed.

I went to another highly touted shop. He gave me about the same price, but told me that he found the oil leak WHEN THEY TOOK THE ENGINE OUT!!! And now it would cost $12,000 or more to fix it. This is a drip, not a flood.

At this point I probably would be ahead if I walked away from car, giving them title to it. I have no idea what he is going to charge me for the R & R of the engine, and there are no written estimates. I'm out of the country at the moment, but will "discuss" it with them later on in the week. I'm at a loss as to which direction to go.

This seems like lunacy to me. Are the porsche shops all like this???
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Last edited by OFG Racing; 08-23-2009 at 07:46 AM..
Old 08-23-2009, 07:27 AM
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I took my SC into a shop to try and find an evasive oil drip. Not a serious leak, but it dripped onto the heater box. And that made S & S (smoke and stink). The shop kept my car for a couple of days and did a "comprehensive" list of what needed to be done. Along with that list came a written estimate of around $5,000. The cost of road testing, writing the estimate, etc. turned out to be $2,000+. Needless to say I was pissed and did not do the work there. Now I'm into this little leak/drip for over $2,000 and it isn't fixed.

I went to another highly touted shop. He gave me about the same price, but told me that he found the oil leak WHEN THEY TOOK THE ENGINE OUT!!! And now it would cost $12,000 or more to fix it. This is a drip, not a flood.

At this point I probably would be ahead if I walked away from car, giving them title to it. I have no idea what he is going to charge me for the R & R of the engine, and there are no written estimates. I'm out of the country at the moment, but will "discuss" it with them later on in the week. I'm at a loss as to which direction to go.

This seems like lunacy to me. Are the porsche shops all like this???
Better buy both of Wayne's books and start reading....
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Old 08-23-2009, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OFG Racing View Post

At this point I probably would be ahead if I walked away from car, giving them title to it. I have no idea what he is going to charge me for the R & R of the engine, and there are no written estimates.
Don't fall into the path of walking away from the car / signing the title over.

Long ago I worked for a shop, and was king of the $100 - $500 car when something came in and it was just too expensive to fix by book rates. I never overinflated the estimate, but was always pleased when I could pick up a car for nearly nothing, put a few hours and $50 of parts in it and have something I could sell for a profit.

Engine out, and just back in is a published "book rate" number of hours. That should not be variable. I would begin by asking these questions, in this succession:
1) What is the hourly rate you are charging me.
2) What do I owe you right now if the car were to be picked up as stands, with engine removed.
3)What would you charge me to just re-install the engine with oil leak.
4) Please email me a copy of the "book Hours" for Removal and re-install of my engine.

It had better add up. I'm guessing R&R of a 911 engine is in the order of 10 hours book. Which at $200 an hour would equals about $2K.

I'm guessing your best option is:
Sell the car to someone on the list as is, engine removed. Likely you'll at least end up with cash out of the deal rather than just signing the car over to the shop.

Oh, and I'm not in the market. I have a 911 with a busted engine too.

Where's the car?
What Year, Mileage, Condition?

Richard in KC

Old 08-24-2009, 12:13 PM
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