Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 Engine Rebuilding Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
juicersr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wilmington,NC
Posts: 2,425
Garage
3.2SS with MS EFI dyno results

Well, finally got a chance to dyno my recently completed 3.2SS motor, built to the following specs

3.0 SC case, crank, rods
95mm Carrera pistons bored out to 98mm
Custom 9.8:1 JE's
DC40 'ModS' Cam
Large port '79 heads, single plug, EBS racing springs and retainers
Large port stock '79 intake runners, plenum, TB
Tbitz MS EFI
Recurved distributor
SSI's
Custom magnaflow exhaust


Before i give the number, let me just say thanks to all the guys who helped me with this build, first being our own Bruce Abbott (flat6PAC), who took over the task after i decided to restore my car instead of rebuild the motor myself (won't they hurry and start offering cloning), Henry Schmidt on cam advice, and Jamie Novak, on helping me get the initial tune worked out.

Well, our best run was 198whp (which equates to what, 230-240ish at crank?) and 181. However, the numbers only tell part of the story. Torque is everywhere, (even with this cam), and the motor spins like crazy (sachs aluminum PP, but stock flywheel). The motor pulls nicely all the way to 7000, but you get a little extra shove starting at 4000. Basically, exactly what i wanted from the motor.




Little youtube for your entertainment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wmkf89qd4c

Now, i know, i know, you are asking why i use the stock plenum instead of ITB's? Mainly because it's what i had, and as this is basically a hobby, and i have my son's education to start saving for, i had to draw the line somewhere. Plus, the car is going to Europe for the long run, and i didnt want to have to fiddle with it, as i thought i might with ITB's. Anyhoo, if i want to go ITB's in future, i can always add them and re-tune
__________________
'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 08-24-2009, 06:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Turbonut
 
Raceboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Estonia, Europe
Posts: 1,060
Garage
Nice numbers, but you could see huge gains from making the ignition programmable from the EFI and get rid of the mechanical advance stuff in the dizzy.
Nice car!
__________________
'83 924 2.5 16v Turbo, 530hp @ 1.5bar
'67 911 widebody hot-rod /2.4S
http://www.facebook.com/vemsporsche
Old 08-24-2009, 09:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
I would rather be driving
 
jpnovak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 7,614
Nice numbers Justin!

And for those who have asked the question before... Yes you can use hot cams like this DC40 with a common plenum intake system. However, you must get rid of the flapper or barn door system on your CIS or Motronic setup, respectively.

I was pleasantly surprised how the car came to life once the EFI was running well. And yes, it pulls hard all the way to redline.

Enjoy the ride Justin!

Oh and bring on the Stem Cell research to accelerate cloning. Although, I don't know if I want another me running around. The world might be in serious trouble if that happens.
__________________
Jamie - I can explain it to you. But I can not understand it for you.
71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine
classicautowerks.com - EFI conversion parts
Old 08-25-2009, 02:43 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
user & abuser
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,304
Garage
can we get some more info on that car, the exhaust exits excite me ! (i don't think i've ever said three ex words in a row before)
__________________
vini vidi vici
Old 08-25-2009, 04:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
juicersr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wilmington,NC
Posts: 2,425
Garage
Thanks for the comments guys

Raceboy, ITB's and coil packs are definately going to be the next step. For now tho, i basically wanted the motor to be as bulletproof as possible, even at the expense of HP, as she is going to be my transportation in Europe for the next several years. Put her on the boat for Antwerp, Belgium yesterday



Jamie, hope all is well down there in Austin and things are cooling down. The tuning and hard breaking in session we did that day really paid off. Cant thank you enough for your advice and input all along the way in this build.

Facey, the exhaust it's basically a magnaflow 2-in, 2-out that with custom pipe work that i shamelessly copied from the GT3 RSR




Pretty happy with the sound. Muted enought at idle and around town (which is important in Europe) but sounds old-school raspy when u crack it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8HDLIlY7gM

BTW, in case u r interested, i started a thread on the upcoming european excursion and sort of a 'cliff notes' version of the highlights of the build here Targa to Sicily
__________________
'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com

Last edited by juicersr; 08-25-2009 at 05:45 PM..
Old 08-25-2009, 05:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
camgrinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: California
Posts: 921
Nice torque curve. Are these the normal DC40 cams on a 102 lobe center, or the wide LC version on 108 degrees?
__________________
John Dougherty
Dougherty Racing Cams
Old 08-26-2009, 09:01 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
I would rather be driving
 
jpnovak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 7,614
Justin, Do you have a graph with rpm values? What are the rpms for peak torque and HP? Do you have the AFR curves that correlate?

Thanks
__________________
Jamie - I can explain it to you. But I can not understand it for you.
71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine
classicautowerks.com - EFI conversion parts
Old 08-26-2009, 09:52 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
MrPerkles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 544
Garage
Send a message via MSN to MrPerkles
Quote:
Originally Posted by camgrinder View Post
Nice torque curve. Are these the normal DC40 cams on a 102 lobe center, or the wide LC version on 108 degrees?
John what does the wide lobe 108 give please ?
__________________
www.facebook.com/pages/Bournville-Frameworks
Old 08-26-2009, 11:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canberra Australia
Posts: 440
Hi,

These look like honest numbers. I am always a bit suspisious of the 3.0 with 250rwhp. I know that each dyno is different but seeing these numbers and the torque curve demonstates a dyno operator that is not trying to impress his clients by producing unrealistic figures.

My last dyno run was only a few weeks ago and it produced 204rwhp....significantly down on some figures posted here. My question to the dyno guy was how does that compare to other cars on this dyno. As it turns out comparable to a mild tuned V8 5.0.

Nice unique car and good numbers enjoy the driving in Europ.

Mark......
Old 08-26-2009, 05:02 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
juicersr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wilmington,NC
Posts: 2,425
Garage
Jamie, here ya go


John, this was the 108 LC cam.

Mark, thanks. I can tell there is a bit more to be obtained from this motor (freer flowing headers, ITB's, programmable ignition), but as is, it should be a dependable and fun motor.
__________________
'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 08-27-2009, 06:06 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
I would rather be driving
 
jpnovak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 7,614
Justin, Thanks for posting the rest of the picture.

OK, now if it will just cool off a bit I will get some numbers on my motor. Same displacement and cams yet, more compression, twin plug, ITBs and headers. This will be a good test case to see the differences.

Yes, you should have a very fun, reliable motor with that build.
__________________
Jamie - I can explain it to you. But I can not understand it for you.
71 911T SWT - Sun and Fun Mobile
72 911T project car. "Minne" - A tangy version of tangerine
classicautowerks.com - EFI conversion parts
Old 08-27-2009, 06:56 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
david dolan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 164
Garage
Sounds like a great setup, I am looking to do something similar in the next year, however one concern I have and is worth paying some attention to is the use of a catalytic converter. I see several countries in Europe creating zones around cities where cars without converters will not be allowed in. I believe this would indicate that in the future a car for sale would gain a better price if it has a cat. This environmental stand is only going to get worse in my opinion.

Is there an alternative available to get better exhaust performance while retaining the cat?
__________________
David Dolan
1995 993 Carrera 4 India Red
1979 911 SC Targa Metallic Black
Old 08-27-2009, 07:30 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
 
Turbonut
 
Raceboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Estonia, Europe
Posts: 1,060
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by david dolan View Post

Is there an alternative available to get better exhaust performance while retaining the cat?
You could get generic sport cats with 200 holes or even 100 holes?
__________________
'83 924 2.5 16v Turbo, 530hp @ 1.5bar
'67 911 widebody hot-rod /2.4S
http://www.facebook.com/vemsporsche
Old 08-27-2009, 08:53 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
camgrinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: California
Posts: 921
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPerkles View Post
John what does the wide lobe 108 give please ?
The wide lobe center (108) gives you a long flat powerband vs. the narrow centers (102). For street driven stuff with EFI the wider centers work better. In most cases anyways.

I don't like the correction factor of 1.00. Was the humidity only 35% when you made the runs? Just a guess, but in North Carolina in the summer, shouldnt you see a 1.02+ correction factor?
__________________
John Dougherty
Dougherty Racing Cams
Old 08-27-2009, 03:00 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Vancouver,Wa.
Posts: 4,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by camgrinder View Post
The wide lobe center (108) gives you a long flat powerband vs. the narrow centers (102). For street driven stuff with EFI the wider centers work better. In most cases anyways.

I don't like the correction factor of 1.00. Was the humidity only 35% when you made the runs? Just a guess, but in North Carolina in the summer, shouldnt you see a 1.02+ correction factor?
No to be argumentative, just curious. My 2.7L chassis dyno sheet with Solex cams(97 deg lobe centers) is nearly a direct over lay of the shown graph. My motor more compression & Webers. With 30 more cubes this motor should look mine look kinda weak. What am I missing?
__________________
JPIII
Early Boxster
Old 08-27-2009, 03:48 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canberra Australia
Posts: 440
JP,

Every dyno is different and it is hard to make comparisions. Even with corrections the Dyno operators tend to, shall we say "exagerate" figures to keep clients happy. With the engine build that Juicerrsr has it is a very strong engine and only if you put both cars on the dyno at the same time would you really know the difference. You will see from munerous posts on this forum that unless two cars are on the same dyno straight after each other a direct comparison results in disapointment. If you are happy with your engine, which you obviously are, then try to avoid comparisions. Juicerrsr has quite a bit more to gain from mode to his engine. I am looking forward to hearing future results.

Cheers

Mark.....
Old 08-27-2009, 04:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Vancouver,Wa.
Posts: 4,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McClure View Post
JP,

Every dyno is different and it is hard to make comparisions. Even with corrections the Dyno operators tend to, shall we say "exagerate" figures to keep clients happy. With the engine build that Juicerrsr has it is a very strong engine and only if you put both cars on the dyno at the same time would you really know the difference. You will see from munerous posts on this forum that unless two cars are on the same dyno straight after each other a direct comparison results in disapointment. If you are happy with your engine, which you obviously are, then try to avoid comparisions. Juicerrsr has quite a bit more to gain from mode to his engine. I am looking forward to hearing future results.

Cheers

Mark.....
Thanks for the education. You have made 2 assumptions here that may or may not be valid....but let's not compare.

It wasn't the only the ultimate numbers that got me wondering, it was the torque & HP curves. They are nearly identical with only differences the charting.

Camgrinder wrote that the wide lobe spacing was better for a flat torque cruve.....this isn't borne out on these 2 engines.....and numbers are all we have to go on. My peak torque is at 3800 & drops off at 5500. Peak HP is at 6300 dropping off 4 hp at 6800.
__________________
JPIII
Early Boxster
Old 08-27-2009, 05:53 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
camgrinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: California
Posts: 921
This exhaust system is fairly restrictive which hurts his top end power. I dont remember seeing a dyno sheet with SSI's that carried HP much past 6200 rpm. And this one shows maybe a 5 hp drop at 6800? There is a lot left in this combination.
Dropping the AFR from 14-1, would be a good place to start.

The 2.7 and the 3.0 share the same 70.4 mm stroke which has a lot to do with the powerband. But, This engine has a plenum intake system. Not really comparing apples to apples in my opinion.

I am curious about your 2.7 dyno sheet, post it up?
__________________
John Dougherty
Dougherty Racing Cams
Old 08-27-2009, 07:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Vancouver,Wa.
Posts: 4,457
Your wish is my command.
Kinda hard to read from my scan job, sorry. I got a song & dance about the "squiggels" .......
__________________
JPIII
Early Boxster
Old 08-27-2009, 07:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
juicersr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wilmington,NC
Posts: 2,425
Garage
JP, nice motor

One thing to remember is that i built this motor for a car that will be driven all over Europe, including to places like Russia, Turkey and the middle east, as well as some track and rally events. To that extent, i made compromises - Restrictive SSI's for heat, Factory Intake and TB for simplicity, and as John pointed out, an AFR on the slightly rich side, in case i get some crummy gas in Bulgaria or wherever. All of these add up to severely limiting the potential, and bringing the curves closer to your motor. However, the motor is very torquey and flexible in a way that the 2.7 in my 914 is not.

Jamie, hurry up and dyno your motor so that we can see what a maxed out 3.2SS is truly capable of!!
__________________
'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 08-28-2009, 06:28 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:55 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.