The Dude's Rebuild; 72 911T
 

I've read other rebuild threads with interest and thought I'd start my own. Have compiled a handful of questions so far and figured it's about time to post my progress.

I bought the car in 1989 and was told I was the third owner (unverified). It was my primary ride in college but the interior needed some TLC and $$$. I got the MFI rebuilt and had the exhaust and heat exchangers replaced in 2000. Probably no more than 1000 miles put on the car since this work.

Fast forward to 2009 --> car sat in storage for 3 years while I lived in Hawaii. It was leaking fuel when I trailered it to New Mexico after moving back and hasn't ran since I got it here.

Back when it was running, #2 and #6 wouldn't hold compression so I thought I would now try my hand at a rebuild and see how many unique tools I could buy before my wife cut me off.

The engine came out OK but I had to leave the tranny on as the barrel nut at 10 o'clock was cluged up from a previous drop. No big deal. I got the MFI off and am not planning on touching this at all (except as noted below). Heat exchangers came off with no problem too so I'm pretty happy with the progress.

I've included the obligatory "assistants in the engine bay" picture and a couple more that illustrate my first question which is this:

In the second picture (engine upside down on the stand), there's a metal oil line running from the bottom of the case, under the flywheel and terminating at the oil tank. I can't break the line loose from the case; the whole metal line turns with the fitting and I've given a cursory try at holding the line while I crank on the nut. In the picture, you can see how the line fits around the flywheel--here it is slightly displaced so I could get the engine yoke on. The next picture is a close-up of the fitting. From what I can see, it's one solid piece from the outer nut to where it joins the case. It looks like the fitting is supposed to turn around the metal oil line but it doesn't and I'm afraid to restrain it too much while I crank on the nut.

Please help before I break something!! I have more pictures but didn't want to clog up this first post.

I'm also thinking about the upgrades I can make while I have this thing torn apart. Yes I have Wayne's book and yes I've read most of chapter 4. Thinking of going with "S" specs (MFI tear down?) plus the Carrera chain tensioners. I'm sure there's more but that's how my current fantasy goes.

Thanks - I am looking forward to this experience.


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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1252896055.jpg

At least they can tell 17mm from 13mm.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1252896237.jpg

Metal oil line running from right side of case, up and over the yoke.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1252896528.jpg

Close up of the oil line fitting.
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Landon,

If you are in or near ABQ. I'd be happy to stop by and give any assistance you might need.

Dana

Dana,

I'm in Alamogordo. Probably too far to drive. I'll be in ABQ for the balloon festival in a couple of weeks. Any good Porsche salvage yards or parts stores there?

Landon

There is a great guy up in Pilar that has alot of misc. parts.
I'm in the middle of a 2.7 build right now. Your welcome to stop by when your in town. If interested, PM me and I'll give you my address.

Remove the oil pressure relief valve cover so you can get a wrench in there.

Put an open end wrench on the fitting screwed into the case to hold it from turning while useing another wrench to unscrew the oil line fitting.

A little heat from a propane torch might help but don't overcook it.

The oil return tube can dent easily from a wrench if you turn it into it while loosening or tightening the oil line fittings.

I'm tearing my engine down too and just ran into the same issue over the weekend. I've hit it with penetrating oil and left it to sit. If it doesn't budge after that and some heat, I'm cutting the pipe with my dremel which will allow me to take the whole thing out of the case. Then I'll need a new oil line and fitting for reassembly.

The oil return tube is cheap to replace (the brass colored tube). I'd sacrafic it first to get a better grip on the fitting. Heat and penetrating oil should help.

-Andy

Thanks for the help. I got the oil press relief valve off and shot the fitting with some liquid wrench type stuff. I think the oil return tube will have to be sacrificed. Will get on it when I get back into town.

jwasbury, let me know how you solved the problem.

Landon

If you sacrifice it I've got one you can have in Las Cruces.

I ended up cutting the f_er off tonight. New fitting and new oil pipe go on the list of rebuild parts now.

Well, I tried to get the oil line off today (again) without success. Dinged the oil return tube in the process so I've got that going for me.

Shoepop, I might take you up on the offer. Will let you know when we come over again. Thanks.

After thinking it over, I might wait till I get the disassembly done more before I try to remove it. It's not really in the way now too much.

I removed the pressure plate today and the rest of the engine mounting bracket.

Chains and tensioners coming off next. At least I got a couple more use-only-once tools for my collection. If anybody is thinking about a rebuild, I'll have some things for sale when this project is done.

BTW, any cons to upgrading the chain tensioners to the pressure-fed type?

Progress photo:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1253500263.jpg

How much for the new line?

New old style oil line is about 100 from our host, and the fitting is 25 or so.

Ouch. The super-special "1972 only" line is llike $235.00. Guess I'll get a another new part.

Progress report
 

My 46mm crow's foot and cam holder came in this week so I was back in business. The cam nut came off easier than I expected given what I've read about it. I bought a 1/2" breaker bar from Wal-Mart and it worked like a champ. The chain housing covers wouldn't slide off so I left them on till I got the heads off.

Here's the latest photos (that damn oil line still isn't off):


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1254103432.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1254103551.jpg

I was too cheap to buy the flywheel lock so I made my own:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1254103676.jpg

So here's my latest question; The cylinders have "Mahle" stamped on the bottom and I was reading Wayne's book (page 53) and he seems to say that Nikasil cylinders by Mahle weren't introduced until 1973. Did Mahle make cylinders prior to that? Also, he also says Mahle/Nikasil cylinders have the stamp on the bottom (top of page 55) and that the Nikasil coating is slightly magnetic - I checked and my cylinder walls are magnetic. Either Mahle cylinders with Nikasil coating were used in 1972 or somebody put these on my engine previously. Anyone have any ideas? Think I'll post this on the Technical forum also. The Haynes book says there were Mahle cylinders in 1972.

Cylinders coming off next.

Your cylinders appear to be the standard 84mm biral cylinders used in the 2.2 and 2.4 E and S spec motors. These would have iron (magnetic) bores with Aluminum (non magnetic) fins. The pistons also appear to be either the 2.2 E or S spec pistons.

Overall, from your pictures, the engine appears to be in pretty good shape.

Thanks for the help Tom. The only oil leak looks like it's coming from the breather on top. Everything is coming apart nicely so that's good news.

I found this stamped on top of the cylinders:

84ZD3

I think I've seen some threads with serial number themes and will try a search to see what's out there.

Over on my Technical Forum post, somebody suggested that the "84" would mean 84mm (used on 2.2/2.4L).

On the oil line, are you using the correct size open end wrenches? I bought my wrenches from Northern tool locally and they were pretty cheap. You have it torn down far enough to have some room to work. Make a note to yourself to reinstall this line before you put the oil return tubes back on when you reassemble. Not much room to turn after it is together but it is not impossible. Good luck with it.

I haven't tried the sane way yet; just some crescent wrenches. Next step is to give this a shot -- really thin ones would work nicely when I figure out where to get them.

I will definitely attach this line before the oil return tubes go back on.

Thanks.

Tom, my rebuild plans included increasing the CR anyway, so this development is good news. Once I get the rest of her apart, I'll have some more questions -- I see you've possibly answered them from my cursory searches. Thanks.

Update -- Cylinders and Pistons Off
 

Sierra Hotel. I finally got back to work on her today. Cylinders and Pistons came off without any problems. I'm still trying to solve the mystery of what these parts are though. Some pictures posted below.

Troublesome oil line still attached although I purchased some good wrenches this weekend so maybe it'll come off yet.
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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1255317823.jpg

All the pistons had "83 95" stamped on top of them.

The number 1 piston had "Mahle 84P11+" stamped underneath.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1255318233.jpg

One more question;

How do you know if the head studs have been updated to the "case-saver" type? I don't have any pictures yet but will post if that helps.

L

Found the piston cross reference post so now I know what the pistons are:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/364817-2-2l-vs-2-4l-s-pistons-how-id.html

Landon,
The case savers refer to threaded inserts in the case that the studs thread into and not the studs themslves. If you remeber, I pointed these out on my case when you visited. Since you are taking your case down this far you should send it out and have this modification(among others) installed.

Enjoy.

Dana

Oil Lines ar a Mike Foxtrot to get off.

I used two Big ass wrenches, with cheater pipes over each one. With an extra 2 ft of leverage on each wrench end, they break loose. But I couldn't get anywhere without the cheater pipes.

Richard

Roger. I finally figured that out during some reading today. So...is there a way to tell if case savers have been installed? I still haven't taken any pictures of this yet but will this weekend.

Landon

Case Seperation
 

Update -- I got the case separated today and that darn oil line finally came off.

The case came apart pretty easily once I re-read Wayne's book and got the gouge on how to do it. The hardest part was getting the flywheel off. I found the triple-square bit (12mm -- aka "serrated wrench" at Napa Auto parts) to perform the op but it was so long that the engine stand yoke interfered with the breaker bar. I eventually just forced it in to place so that the bit would be square with the bolts and was able to crack them loose. Will have to do something different for the re-install, like maybe buy the triple-square in socket form.

It took me about 15 minutes of tapping to get the case halves apart.

There was one hitch though; I turned the engine right-side-down (with a safety bolt installed to hold the lower half of course) and while I was tapping it apart, a mystery part fell out:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1255830021.jpg

Once the case came apart, I couldn't tell where this may have come from. It was near the front of the engine more-so than the back part -- like near the oil pump maybe. Anyway, its bagged up for later identification.

I'm still trying to figure out if I need to pull the head studs out. None of them are pulled out any and externally, they look fine. Anyone got any suggestions? I know the stock answer is "while your down there, might as well..." but somebody previously had the engine apart and I'm wondering if there's a way to tell if these studs are in good shape. They are all magnetic.

Here's the photo. Note that this is not my bike in the background.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1255830820.jpg

Landon,
Oil pressure relief valve. Hang onto it unless you modify your case.....hint,hint,hint. Then you would want a differant type.

Hmmm. I'm not following your hint Dana. Did some web-surfing tonight on engine case knowledge and found a lot of info but nothing that helped be grab what you're trying to say.

Why would one modify their case? Mine are 4R's but I couldn't find anything coherent on what that means or doesn't mean.

BTW, got the crank out today but it certainly didn't lift out "with minimal effort" like the book said.

Guess I need to start looking for a good machine shop. Where was that one you were telling me about?

You will want the Porsche machine shop to perform the standard improvement to your mag case.

This will include as a minimum:

1. Time certs
2. Oil bypass modification (Dana's hint)
3. Line bore check and correct

Landon,

Sent you a PM.

Are you sure that's not your bike?

Dana

+ 1 on what Tom says.

Also, for the flywheel bolts you can use an open endded wrench with your tool to get them off. When re-assy. just get one or 2 of them tight in the same way and then when the engine is off the stand and the engine mount is off you can use your flywheel lock and torque them all down properly... Just DON'T forget!! I use a paint pen to mark every nut/bolt that I tightened so I would not miss one or do one twice. I used white as yellow and red seem to be used by others a lot on my engine.

Enjoy!

-Michael

P.S. Sure looks like your bike ;)

Nice tips. Thanks.

I guess I need to post a picture of my bike.

What's next?
 

Thanks all for the help. As a noob, I need to be hit upon the skull with suggestions...

Anyway, understood on all the standard mag case improvements.

What should I do with the heads? I haven't touched them since taking them off. I'm guessing there's machine work involved. Is it better just to leave them assembled or can I save myself some $$ by doing it myself? Any mods I need to worry about with these?

How about the clutch? Seemed to work fine before.

L

Heads you need to send out. Its possible to do them yourself, but the procedure is quite involved and then that is just the guide replacement. To deck them requires a mill and machining expertise to get them all correct.

my advice is send them out... ~$600-1200 depending on who and what you have done. there are several good shops you may use.

-michael

Landon,
I am curious as to what your costs will be. I am looking at a 1973 911E 2.4L engine and a 1971 911E 2.2L engine. The first is in good running condition, and the second needs a complete rebuild.

I was trying to find a ballpark cost of a DIY rebuild (including the specialty tools).

So far: I sourced Pelican for parts ($2500). Machine shop ($1800). I am using a slightly used Carrera oil pump ($500) and flywheel ($150). The engine is $1600.
Total (so far)= $6550.

Good luck on your project,
Doc

Doc,

You've already given more thought to the cost of your rebuild than I have. So far, I've just been plugging along and haven't thought about the cost. Probably not the best plan.

Your estimates seem reasonable though. The machine shop costs look close to what I'm figuring and I'm also thinking of the upgraded, pressure-fed tensioners. I hadn't really thought about the oil pump upgrade but it would be much easier to do now. My pump is stock and looks to be in good working order now.

I haven't calculated what all the parts will cost but your figure looks higher than I plan on spending. I've bought a couple of specialty tools that I don't plan on keeping after I'm done. Keep an eye on the used parts forum in 6-9 months as I'll be selling these.

If you have Wayne's book, there's some good estimate tables in there. It's kind of depressing to read as my budget doesn't match my plans. I'm blissfully ignorant of what's ahead. Sorry to not be of more help. I have been saving all my receipts to see how much I spend in the end and will post that for others.

Good luck to you and how about a picture?

Landon

My parts included a new clutch ($400), a used muffler ($150), and a plug wire kit ($130) which you don't probably need. I am using new rod bolts/nuts ($250). Most everything else is just gaskets, bearings, valve springs, and timing chains/rails.

I do have Wayne's book, but I forgot about the tables.

The car came with a mismatched set of Fuchs wheels (16" and 15", go figure). So, I found 3 other proper 15" wheels and will restore all 5 (one real spare) with the DIY threads about wheel painting and restoration (the budget way).

I can't find a picture of the Bahia Red '71 but the body is nice with all new suspension and brakes. It needs seats. My absolute total budget is $20K, and that includes some nice seats.

Here's my only longhood that is moving on it's own power ;):
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...braR/73RSt.jpg

Any updates?

Hello Dana. I was just getting ready to PM you but I'll provide an update.

Everything is apart and looks to be in good order. My Mark-I eyeball shows the crank to be OK as are the rods. The rod bolts were pretty hard to get off as the clearance between them and the rod were awfully small to get a socket on.

When I was inspecting the case, I noticed some damage from where one of the chains had evidently slipped and gouged up the case. It's mainly some scrapping of the magnesium but I'm not sure if it's superficial or serious damage. It looks to me like a machine shop could mill out the damage without affecting the structural properties the case -- i.e. the gouges aren't too deep. This did not happen while I was driving it so it's previous damage. I'm most worried about the scarring and the areas shedding some metal shavings so I'll ask the shop if they can fix it.

Speaking of that, I called Ollie's last week and talked to Ike. (BTW, they have a different phone number -- (928) 855-6101 but they still answer the (714) number.)

Will probably ship everything off this week if I get time.

Question: What do I need to do to the case before sending it? Remove the head studs? Remove the case studs? All of them are magnetic so I'm pretty sure no Dilavar. I already know to get the case-savers installed.

Since I'm getting ready for some down time on the engine, I've been taking apart the interior/doors to see what I need. I was also shopping for an upgraded oil pump...

How hard is to add an external oil cooler?

That's about it. I'm just staring at all the parts and reading ahead on how to put it all back together. The tear-down was a breeze compared to what I'm about to get into with re-assembly.

Landon

p.s. Can you PM me your address so I can ship the gear-puller back to you?