Twin plug advice
 

Is there an alternative to the andial signal splitter?

looking for a complete set up for a 3.2/3.4 conversion.
Crankfire systems seem too expensive which leaves me with the mechanical solution. I'm assuming that its a must to have some kind of splitter to ease the burden on the DME system.

Anybody done anything different or should I bite the bullet and buy the Andial one?

Regards
David

The "big 3" are:
1 - crank triggered systems, the 2 most common being XDI & Megasquirt II with EDIS
2 - a dual distributor system - usually modify a 964 distributor for triggering, and run run 2 CDI boxes & an some electronics to control advance (as the 964 has no mechanical advance)
3 - 12-plug distributor - modify an existing distributor or somehow source an original (and you thought crankfire was expensive). This setup also requires 2 CDI boxes (and associated HW) but doesn't require an advance controller as the distributor has mechanical advance.

None of these options are cheap...

twin plug
 

Long horn has good advice, I would add that Richard Clewett has some nice stuff available using Electromotive bits (I think this is the XDI he referred to) that is not too expensive and works really well.
Best of luck,
Cole

Supertec has a great twin plug alternative.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1257370131.jpg
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that engine is just dead sexy!

If you like that one here's more.

Picture from the new shop coming soon.!!!!



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New shop?

Patience, Grand opening soon.

Sorry Henry... I forgot you had that. I guess #3 should have included "buy a new 12-plug distributor"

And those are purdy :)

whats this kinda thing cost?
Wild Porsche Engine

+1 for the Supertec twin-plug distributor.

That 3.5 twin-plug MFI engine is in my garage :)

As they say, if you have to ask...

There are so many ways to build a high performance engine. Case in point, the "Wild" engine is a 2.8 short stoke built on a new old stock RSR case. Finding that case is like looking for a unicorn.
You also have many different options for case, rods and induction.
The short stroke 2.8 is a great engine especially for a long hood platform So building them offers great rewards.
Just to give you some idea about price, a base using a 3.0 turbo or Carrera case would cost around $15 K. Add to that $3 k for twin plugging, $6K for modified production MFI and you start seeing a trend.
If you want Ty rods add $2.5K. Ty valve $1.2 K. Built using our new slide valve system add $12-$18K depending on the pump.
If you want one built using a 3.0-3.6 case you will need a Supertec SuperCrank and that will add another $3k or so.
Please understand these are just general prices. If you are serious about building one of these gems we will be happy to negotiate something that fits your budget.
That said: if your budget is $10K we will help you secure proper medication.:)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1257437528.jpg
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These days, I have to ask the price of a "Happy Meal". :(

Henry,

Have you considered adding a boss for and electronic (bosch type) injector to your slide valve offerings? Then folks could use them with a modern ECU....

Cheers

We built three slides. One was built for MFI and the other two can be used for MFI or EFI. We will convert the system to suit the buyer. The magic to our system is that the manifold base bolts on and can easily be modified. We can even make a 3 bolt base for a 3.6 head. Add a generic fuel rail and it's done.
We can change the port size to suit the application as well.
We also have stacks designed for use with an air filter housing for the daily driver.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1257475804.jpg
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Nice!!!!

I am wondering how much more power one can expect with slides vs standard ITB's with a throttle plated...

Cool.

Cheers

Cool pics and bits.

If you are intent on keeping your DME then I believe the Andial or similar box is your easiest choice.

Adapting an EDIS system to fire from your DME might actually be the cheapest.

If you make the leap away from the DME then you have even more options like Henry's or JB Racing's twin-plug distributor. They are both designed to perform both the triggering/timing side as well as the spark distribution function. You may be able to retain the DME's triggering of the spark but the distributor's firing. I'm not sure about that. If you go the twin-plug distributor route you need a pair of coils and a pair of MSD 6 boxes also (add ~$400) plus fabricating/adapting mounting panels.

I dont know what an andial box goes for. Henry can quote you a price for his distributor, JB's cost me around $1250. The parts to do it from EDIS would be about $150.

To expand alittle.
I wanted to keep the DME at this point.
I have sourced a 964 dizzy, was thinking about the Andial splitter so what else do I need to make it all work?

Db

The cost for one of my distributors is right around $2,200.
You only need one MSD but you will need two coils.
We mount the single MSD box under the drivers seat to keep away from the RF signal generated by the plug wire and it also keeps it clean & dry.
We mount the coils on the relay board, removing it from the fan housing to isolate it from engine vibration.
The other benefit is a clean engine bay.


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Thanks Henry.

that's really spelling it out for us.
Would you run the MSD (obviously much cheaper) instead of an Andial signal splitter? And is it all just bolt on and go?

Db

hello,

i am going to use a marelli 12-plug distributor on my 3.2 SS.
instead of using two hkz, i am thinking about using two permatune with integrated rev limiter.

any experience with this configuration or any other ideas?

thanks

hello,

if this tip should be for me - thank you! but theoretical i have two hkz witch i can use - but i don't want :(

i want to use something newer with a rev limiter...

thanks

The MSD model 6AL has a rev limiter built in.

I have used MSDs as Yoda recommends starting in 1989 on a Twin Plug engine. The rev limiter works very smoothly giving the engine almost the feel that the throttle blade is going over center and starting to close.

One thing though, stick with the Blaster 2 coils which have only a 140 milliampere current draw, some of the other MSD coils such as the Propower and HVCII draw as much as 2 Amperes!

The highest amp drawing coil that MSD recommends is their "Blaster SS" (in a single coil application) which draws 300 milliamperes; the Blaster 2 units work just fine since 2 X 140 ma = 280 within the 300 ma recommendation.

As an aside, I ran into an issue of misfire running a single plug engine on the dyno, it turned out that the problem was the output of a "Pro Power" series MSD coil fried the resistor in the Bosch rotor. Switching to a god old Blaster 2 coil eliminated the problem and the engine ran just fine.

I'm going to give the JB racing twin plug distributor a try. It looks very similar to Henry's except it uses 2 MSD boxes. Not an expert, just a driver.

Just to allay any confusion, the Supertec distributor can function with two MSD or any other pair of CDs. We offer the single CD system as a fail-safe system that shuts the engine down if a CD failure occurs. If you run two separate systems simultaneously and one fails, serious engine damage can occur. What is very common in our systems is to run two CDs one at a time separated by a switch. This allows for reliability of a twin system but less chance of engine damage.

Don't you normally run less advance on a twin plugged engine?

hello,

has really nobody any experiences with the Perma-Tune CD boxes?
Sometimes i have heard that they should fail often or doesn't produce good power?

thanks

JMHO, but I won't install a Permatune on anything. I've been burned too many times since 1976 with failures on these things.

With Bosch CD boxes pretty much showing their age, I use MSD's and matching coils.

Keith,

Have you checked into a crank fire twin plug set-up? Clewett makes a complete kit that includes Electromotive parts and they say they are bullet proof. The whole set-up is around $1300 complete. I found a used 964 12 wire distributor on the Inet for $1500 but it's hard to say what kind of shape it's in. Then you have to add the MSD and by the time you're all said and done it's a lot more.

The Electromotive set up lets you adjust the timing in three stages, idle, 3,000 and 7,500. At 7,500 you can add or subtract (retard) timing.

Just a thought.

Lindy

I have a blue one and it has never failed. The silver ones are apparently a disaster. I still keep a spare in the car.

Yes, initially that was my plan.

The products at Henry's or JB racing have been getting good results and seem to have good reliability (roughly similar pricing). My opinion is based on and shaped by people that know a lot more about this than I do. I know reputable engine builders are using all these products. When I read the installation instruction for the JB racing setup it just looked very clean and straight forward. I hope it is ??? My .02

I have used Permatunes on and off over the years and have had good results.
One thing we always do is by a coil that matches the unit.
Porsche coils have far too much impedance for the Permatune units.

Quick question.

When one of the CD's fail in a twin plug application where both CD's and both coils are running at the same time although separate; Is the risk of engine damage because the timing is set that much closer to the pistons TDC?

I am assuming that if one system fails; The timing is now way too advanced and due to the delay of flame propagation it causes detonation.

Can someone verify this please?

Yes, just as for the 964 twin distributors where the toothed belt snapped you are effectively running single plug

the risk of engine damage because the timing is set that much closer to the pistons TDC?
I am assuming that if one system fails; The timing is now way too advanced and due to the delay of flame propagation it causes detonation


No, the total timing with twin plugs is less than single plug. The timing would be retarded, not "way too advanced", for single plug ignition.

Distributor
 

Kieth, I would be glad to discuss the 12 pin dist. we build, If you like give myself or Jim Higgs a call, we also are building a 6 pin dist. with the same internal components for 2.4 and up that will trigger MSD, we plan to do one for the 2.0/2.2 as well and also the 3.2 and SC.
Thanks for your interest, Mike Bruns JBRacing.com

Keith,

You should call Mike Bruns and discuss your application. I am using his product and it was very easy to setup. I have two coils and two MSD boxes but I run the coils on one box at a time. I have a switch in the engine bay to switch boxes and related pickup coils from the distributor. I plan to move it to the drivers compartment when I figure out where I want it so I can switch on the fly. I also have a kill switch for theft protection that essentially grounds the CD box so the car won't start. You can see the two sets of pickup wires in the pic. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258649460.jpg

Ed,

That looks great, exactly what I hope to do as well. I'd like to do a cockpit switch as well. Thanks for the input.

These 12 plug distributors do look very nice, but I am still thinking about the potential cost saving with the clewett setup. What would be the drawbacks, if any for using a crankfire ignition on a MFI engine?