210rwhp in a stock 3.0?

[ninesixfour]

Is that kind of power possible in a stock Euro 3.0 motor? By stock I mean stock cams, 9.8:1 CR, single plug, CIS, Euro fuel distributor, no ported heads, no knife-edging, no boat-tailing, etc. Exhaust can be open. Possible? If so, how?

thanks

[vmax]

Chris,
If you go on Buckley's website from this thread you will see a dyno for a PCA legal EURO SC with 210 RWHP.
Jim Buckley is a National Scrut.
Bryan Henderson is the PCA Club Racing Chief National Steward.
I guarantee that engine is legal.

Sneak Peek of New Stainless Steel Headers

210 RWHP is a very stout number for a Stock Euro SC. You would have to a fresh rebuild with and a verified 9.8/1 comp engine, properly rebuilt heads, and Buckley's header system or one like it.
I am sure they spent some time maximizing the A/F ratio and timing to achieve that number. I am confident that with a properly built and tuned Euro SC 3.0L, that 200+RWHP is very achievable.

Just as a comparison, look at the Carrera engine from that same thread. It made 10 RWHP more than the Euro SC engine, and that is with the stock chip. That car is a G-50 car and has to run at 2906 lbs vs 2702 lbs for the Euro SC. The 84-86 Carreras with 915 trans run at 2812 lbs.

Euro SC 2702 lbs-- 210RWHP-approx 247 flywheel hp-- 10.93 lbs/hp
G-50 Carrera 2906 lbs-- 220RWHP-approx 258 flywheel hp-- 11.26 lbs/hp

The Euro SC was rated at 204 hp, the Carrera 217 hp by the factory. Obviously the factory numbers are flywheel hp, and with stock exhaust. Properly designed headers really wake these engines up.

[ninesixfour]

I hear what you're saying, but was also told face to face by a PCA scrut, whose engine had recently been rebuilt, that it was "mostly legal" and contained "nothing YOU can find", which is the simple reason for my suspicion. I'm glad to hear you say it can be done. For what cost? $25K?

Does his header design have you going to 1 5/8 for the 3.2? Do you think just a switch from 1 1/2 to 1 5/8 on my current motor would help?

Believe me, I know ALL about how the G50 cars have to run at 2906. I've been listening to Jack moan about it for years. I TOLD him to buy an SC!

[vmax]

Chris,
I hope that PCA Scrut was just messing with you. If that was a serious statement, I would find that troubling.
I just don't buy the "nothing you can find part" playing a large role reaching your horsepower goal. Things like boat-tailing and knife edging don't really add anything under 7000 RPM. The thing is you can find that stuff. Put a bore-scope in a oil return tube and look around. Cams can be checked, lift is pretty easy-duration not so much.
There are tricks I am sure are being used by some people. Things like coatings on pistons,gears,bearings, ect. I just don't buy that it is making that much of a difference.
Really--I stopped worrying about what other people were doing a long time ago.
Are people going to cheat--sure--but i don't think that many running up front are in any significant way. PCA stepped up checking cars for compliance last season, something I was really happy to see. Quite a few people got dinged- mostly for smaller stuff like bump steer kits, and camber plates.

I do think there are a couple of things that are not checked that need to be.
Motronic chips--PCA started cracking down on the cars that they can check for non-stock programming--The newer 996/986/987/997.
On the earlier Motronic cars with removable E-proms, I think they can only do a visual check to make sure it is the original chip. I think there is some trickery going on in that area.
Stock turbo housings, with non stock internals.
I know for a fact, that that is going on. People take the stock turbo and install a ball bearing insert. Boost builds much quicker than stock.

Just build a good solid reliable engine--get it to the 200 RWHP range
Maximize your car to the rules--and then just worry about one thing--Driving the wheels off of it.

[vmax]

Chris you also asked about 1 1/2 versus 1 5/8 headers.
Yes, I think you should consider using a 1 5/8 inch header.

I am going to use 1 5/8 with the 3.2.
Thread I referenced with the dyno chart comparing a 3.2 with SSI vs. Buckley 1 5/8 headers. 20 hp above 6000 rpm is huge.

[ninesixfour]

I hope he was kidding. The comment was made to me in 2008, maybe before they were really checking hard.

My engine needs to make it two more years before I rebuild it. If it explodes before then, I'll have some tough decisions to make. I suspect that with 112000 original miles, I'll need new Ps&Cs, which last I checked were around $4K from EBS Racing.

BTW, did you ever find out what happened to Mark's engine at Putnam? That D class car he was co-driving was smoking too.

Thanks for all the info. I'll keep my eye out for a used set of 1 5/8 headers.

[Bill Verburg]

The Buckley's are a very nice open, stepped design w/ double, reverse cone collectors. They are great where an unmuffled exhaust is allowed.

that step design used 1 5/8" tube stepped up to to 1 3/4" before the merge collector, the advantage of a stepped design is the hotter gases flow much faster than the cooler downstream gases, the extra volume down stream allows room for gradual expansion and cooling of the gas w/o creating undesirable pressure, the merge collectors further smooth the flow and the reverse cones amplify the acoustic signal sent to the ports, if the lengths and widths are right the whole thing works as a giant suction pump pulling spent gases from the cylinders and fresh mixture into them(as long as the cams have been aced).

Unfortunately w/ stock cams and w/ mufflers it's only a nice header type exhaust

[ninesixfour]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

The Buckley's are a very nice open, stepped design w/ double, reverse cone collectors. They are great where an unmuffled exhaust is allowed.

that step design used 1 5/8" tube stepped up to to 1 3/4" before the merge collector, the advantage of a stepped design is the hotter gases flow much faster than the cooler downstream gases, the extra volume down stream allows room for gradual expansion and cooling of the gas w/o creating undesirable pressure, the merge collectors further smooth the flow and the reverse cones amplify the acoustic signal sent to the ports, if the lengths and widths are right the whole thing works as a giant suction pump pulling spent gases from the cylinders and fresh mixture into them(as long as the cams have been aced).

Unfortunately w/ stock cams and w/ mufflers it's only a nice header type exhaust

Buckley runs stock cams, since his car is in E stock, and looks to be making some pretty good power with them.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by ninesixfour

Buckley runs stock cams, since his car is in E stock, and looks to be making some pretty good power with them.

Stock cams have so little valve overlap that almost any free flow exhaust will work as well as any other, the secret to his hp#s is not in the headers, as I said they are a very nice design hobbled by restrictions upstream.

[arrivederci]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

Stock cams have so little valve overlap that almost any free flow exhaust will work as well as any other, the secret to his hp#s is not in the headers, as I said they are a very nice design hobbled by restrictions upstream.

I wish there was more info available on these 'secrets'. Timing + AFR?

My '81, with 1 5/8" george's headers and megaphones put down 188 hp (corrected for altitude? dunno). I also tested with a monty dual in, dual out muffler just prior and saw 185 hp. For laughs, we also put a K&N filter on and saw no change.

I've had cars with the Buckley exhaust walk away from me on the straights (including Buckley himself). Hard to tell if it is all the headers as some of those cars were running the lightweight 15" dirt track wheels.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by jpinkert

I wish there was more info available on these 'secrets'. Timing + AFR?

My '81, with 1 5/8" george's headers and megaphones put down 188 hp (corrected for altitude? dunno). I also tested with a monty dual in, dual out muffler just prior and saw 185 hp. For laughs, we also put a K&N filter on and saw no change.

I've had cars with the Buckley exhaust walk away from me on the straights (including Buckley himself). Hard to tell if it is all the headers as some of those cars were running the lightweight 15" dirt track wheels.

A lot of little things(including the driver) add up to some pretty big differences. Just by blueprinting a stock motor you can pick up an easy 10-15hp. Hand select all the components for weight, set some tolerances loose others tight and voila...

The only difference between a Carrera 3.0 200 factory hp and an SC 188 factory hp is a heavier crank , AFR's & spark timing

[ninesixfour]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

Stock cams have so little valve overlap that almost any free flow exhaust will work as well as any other, the secret to his hp#s is not in the headers, as I said they are a very nice design hobbled by restrictions upstream.

So you think a fancy exhaust isn't necessary? Just something with equal length primaries?

And yes, what is the secret? Just the blueprinting? There are a couple of D cars (USA SCs instead of Euro) in particular that are insanely fast on the straights.

Originally Posted by jpinkert

I wish there was more info available on these 'secrets'. Timing + AFR?

My '81, with 1 5/8" george's headers and megaphones put down 188 hp (corrected for altitude? dunno). I also tested with a monty dual in, dual out muffler just prior and saw 185 hp. For laughs, we also put a K&N filter on and saw no change.

I've had cars with the Buckley exhaust walk away from me on the straights (including Buckley himself). Hard to tell if it is all the headers as some of those cars were running the lightweight 15" dirt track wheels.

Josh how old is your engine? Mine is the orignal, unrebuilt unit with 112000 miles, and my best dyno run was 181rwhp. Timing set to 32 degrees, AFR of 13.2, running local 93 octane. Exhaust is pre-74 heat exchangers and megaphones. As Doug suggested above, a switch to a 1 5/8 size could yield some gains.

[arrivederci]

Originally Posted by ninesixfour

Josh how old is your engine? Mine is the orignal, unrebuilt unit with 112000 miles, and my best dyno run was 181rwhp. Timing set to 32 degrees, AFR of 13.2, running local 93 octane. Exhaust is pre-74 heat exchangers and megaphones. As Doug suggested above, a switch to a 1 5/8 size could yield some gains.

Kinda hard to say as I don't have great documentation. It had 181000 km on it before coming over from Germany. It now shows over 106000 miles on the odometer (after being federalized, of course) and in 2001 had new piston rings, head studs, timing chains, chain tensioners, valves, valve springs, valve guides, and heads resurfaced. So its a mixed bag. Leakdown isn't great but isn't bad either. We run 91 octane in Denver (can't get 93).

[ninesixfour]

Originally Posted by jpinkert

Kinda hard to say as I don't have great documentation. It had 181000 km on it before coming over from Germany. It now shows over 106000 miles on the odometer (after being federalized, of course) and in 2001 had new piston rings, head studs, timing chains, chain tensioners, valves, valve springs, valve guides, and heads resurfaced. So its a mixed bag. Leakdown isn't great but isn't bad either. We run 91 octane in Denver (can't get 93).

Yes that is tough to pinpoint, but it's safe to say it's newer than mine! Did you do the top end work in 2001 or was it the previous owner?

[arrivederci]

Originally Posted by ninesixfour

Yes that is tough to pinpoint, but it's safe to say it's newer than mine! Did you do the top end work in 2001 or was it the previous owner?

Previous owner. It was a street car before I got ahold of it. I went through the suspension, added a front mount cooler, exhaust, cage, etc to prep it for club racing. After racing at Hallet this year, I realize how badly I need an LSD. Won't do that, tho, until the transmission needs a rebuild. I won't touch the motor until it needs something serious. I don't mind being down a few HP...still have quite a bit of racecraft to work on.

[ninesixfour]

Originally Posted by jpinkert

Previous owner. It was a street car before I got ahold of it. I went through the suspension, added a front mount cooler, exhaust, cage, etc to prep it for club racing. After racing at Hallet this year, I realize how badly I need an LSD. Won't do that, tho, until the transmission needs a rebuild. I won't touch the motor until it needs something serious. I don't mind being down a few HP...still have quite a bit of racecraft to work on.

I've gone down the exact same path and also don't have an LSD, but haven't really noticed it, probably because I'm not going fast enough. I realize it will be easier to rebuild the engine before it grenades, but I'm not going to do it right now just for the hp. I still have a lot of reading to do before I'm ready to tackle a big job like that.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by ninesixfour

So you think a fancy exhaust isn't necessary? Just something with equal length primaries?

And yes, what is the secret? Just the blueprinting? There are a couple of D cars (USA SCs instead of Euro) in particular that are insanely fast on the straights.



Josh how old is your engine? Mine is the orignal, unrebuilt unit with 112000 miles, and my best dyno run was 181rwhp. Timing set to 32 degrees, AFR of 13.2, running local 93 octane. Exhaust is pre-74 heat exchangers and megaphones. As Doug suggested above, a switch to a 1 5/8 size could yield some gains.

w/ smog cams and mufflers there is little to be gained beyond what is available from any run of the mill free flowing header system.

W/ S or better cams and open megaphones the headers can make large differences, usually over a narrrow rev band. There are header designs that give up max power for a broader torque band.

I concur that for a race 3.0 1 5/8" pipes are probably a better choice than the ssi 1 1/2"

[ninesixfour]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

w/ smog cams and mufflers there is little to be gained beyond what is available from any run of the mill free flowing header system.

W/ S or better cams and open megaphones the headers can make large differences, usually over a narrrow rev band. There are header designs that give up max power for a broader torque band.

I concur that for a race 3.0 1 5/8" pipes are probably a better choice than the ssi 1 1/2"

How about smog cams and megaphones? Anything open will do?

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by ninesixfour

How about smog cams and megaphones? Anything open will do?

The mechanism that is at work to make headers and megaphones work is a reflected acoustic signal tha tplaces a low pressure region just at the back of the exhaust valve at the right instant during the exhaust stroke. A substantial extra bonus is derived when there is overlap(intakes and exhausts open at the same time) and the low pressure can also draw extra fresh mixture into the cc.

mufflers all but cancel the relevant acoustics or at least muddy them up so much as to be ineffective(though there are steps that are usually not taken to minimize this). Smog cams have little or no over lap. So the best that can be hoped for in a muffled system is flow volume and efficient transport of the cooling and expanding gasses. Headers by their very nature do enhance flow rates and stepped headers w/ proper merge collecters further enhance the basic good that properly sized headers can provide

[ninesixfour]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

The mechanism that is at work to make headers and megaphones work is a reflected acoustic signal tha tplaces a low pressure region just at the back of the exhaust valve at the right instant during the exhaust stroke. A substantial extra bonus is derived when there is overlap(intakes and exhausts open at the same time) and the low pressure can also draw extra fresh mixture into the cc.

mufflers all but cancel the relevant acoustics or at least muddy them up so much as to be ineffective(though there are steps that are usually not taken to minimize this). Smog cams have little or no over lap. So the best that can be hoped for in a muffled system is flow volume and efficient transport of the cooling and expanding gasses. Headers by their very nature do enhance flow rates and stepped headers w/ proper merge collecters further enhance the basic good that properly sized headers can provide

Megaphones are just hollow tubes, no muffling.