I cleaned today for a little over 2 hours. I purchased a few bottles of Simple Green Motorsports Cleaner that's safe on aluminum, wanted to be environmentally friendly. However, it's not as effective as I would have liked. Fortunately, my local Advance Auto is having a sale on brake cleaner this month - 2 for 1. I purchased a case for about $20, going back for another. It's stinky, but it does work. I made a first pass on one case half, both cam towers and both chain cases. I got a deep tub and scrubbed away, then mixed the residue with old oil from my daily driver which I will return to Advance.

Not done yet, first pass only, but much improved.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263058949.jpg

Also, found a good use for an old cassette tape holder. Yes, I can put them back exactly how they were removed.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263058999.jpg

Been following your rebuild. Im actually doing the same thing but contemplating splitting the cases. Are you glad you split them or should you have just kept it together?

My intermediates were definitely bad, and they needed replaced. I also felt like it was difficult to keep minor dirt and debris out of the case as I worked on the p&c and top end, so splitting allowed me to make sure it was clean. Finally, as others advised me, I now know the condition of my crank. Generally speaking, I would say "yes" it was worth it and not too much additional work - couple of days of work - but, I will probably hold final judgment until the case is resealed and not leaking once running. :rolleyes:

Are you thinking of splitting the case on your '70? There may be other considerations when splitting a mag case, but I'm not the expert.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1263176422.jpg

No, it is a 1978 3.0 that Im working on. It has 108k. It had 2 broken studs so I pulled it down to the case. The p/c's look great. I sent the heads out but really dont want to split the cases unless it is necessary.

I had the same dilemma, in the end I decided to split it. I would suggest it really depends on your expectations for the motor going forward. It you want another 108k, it might be worth the effort to split it just to reseal it and replace the intermediates. If you only drive a few thousand (less than 5) miles each year, then it may not be necessary.

Good luck with that!

Bottom end gasket set, a few hours and good sealant and you know what you have. Nothing worse than having a leak after you were near where its leaking. All about hinesight.

Bruce

I know you are right but I am a bit intimidated to take it that far down. On a good note, I was checking my p/c's and found out that they are the Max Moritz 3.2 9.7:1 p/c's! I thought it was just a 3.0 but turns out it is a 3.2ss! It all looks perfect! Im so stoked! Anyway, maybe I will split the cases. Ill read Waynes a few more times to build up confidence :)

No need to be. If you made it to the case, the most complex part of the disassembly is behind you.

A 3.2 SS. How fun!

I will probably do it. Just fearing a bunch of additional money....bearings, cam chains....etc.......

You ve already have Max p/c so there has been someone there. Splitting the case will tell you if you have a cut crank, or if the bearings have been changed or if there is dirt streaks on the crank and mains, change the intermediates and chain rails, use a good sealant, I prefer case centerline, hondabond2 or yamabond2 follow the directions. Heads to the cam carrier I prefer aircraft permatex 1000, and locktite 574 for the lower chain boxes and covers, breather seal. The bottom end gaskets set is relatively inexpensive but you get to reseal the up 20 year old sealants.

Bruce

Bruce is right! If you have come this far, why not take it down a little further to make it all perfect.

Greg: What a wonderful job you are doing with the clean-up. Did you happen to notice what might be causing the scratches near the intermediate shaft bearing? Are the chains doing that? (Scratches lower left of where the intermediate bearing you have circled in the picture.) Just wondering.

Do the ARP rod bolts as the Porsche ones are a one time use bolt. With the 3.2's having 9mm bolts they are a weak point in the drive train. Much better chance of survival in case of an accidental over-rev.

On mine, I dont think it has ever been split. The MM P/C's have been on there a very long time by looking at how nasty the motor looked. Im guessing maybe it was alusil and they were replaced 20 years ago. Either way, I will split it. I just hope there arent any suprises. In an effort to stop polluting this thread with my stuff, here is a link to my car rebuild with a few engine pix on the last page. I will try to update the engine build there.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/418411-here-my-new-old-project-lilly.html

Ed - No, I don't know the cause of those nicks. There seem to be quite a few in numerous locations near the chains - inside chain cases, inside case near guides, etc. The tensioners were a bear to compress and oil squirted out of them when I compressed them to remove. Plus, the chains were tight when I removed the chain covers.

This is where the novice in me is lost. I don't even know if nicks are normal or not.

Nice progress Greg. Subscribed If you haven't already met him, you might want to take a ride down to Pete's European Techniques and talk to Pete Delmer about some of your questions. When I was first looking into buying the 77', I drove around to talk to all of the local P- mechanics ( Pete, George Riggins, Andy Bittenbinder, etc...) and although they all seemed knowledgeable, It seemed that Pete had the most to say about rebuilding engines. He offered alot of info about where novice builders, (and some pros) make mistakes and what he does to fix the situation. In fact, he is the only person I have talked to that has said "911 engines when built right do NOT leak oil!"

As it turned out, before my 77' was sold to the PO in 1999, he rebuild and modified the engine. It has not leaked a drop since I bought it 07' nor did the PO complain. Let me know if you need any help...Yuengling ok?

Mike

Yuengling works for me. Stop by after seeing Greg. Im only about 5 hours west on I-70 :)

Thanks Mike. Funny, but shouldn't I be offering the Yuengling. I know of Pete, but haven't met him yet. I do plan to take my car there to ask him a few questions. I am usually working on Saturday's, you're welcome to come by anytime, just give me a heads up in advance. I probably have another two weekends of cleaning, before I reseal. I am going to use threebond /yamabond/whateverbond to seal the case. It's not what our host sells, but it seems to be the favored sealant these days and I bought everything else from Wayne.

I might take you up on your offer of assistance when I sealing the case. I am afraid that I won't be able to get everything torqued down in a reasonable time frame by myself.

Greg, I just wanted to thank you for the encouragement. I split my case last night. It looked similar to yours. The intermediates were the same. My mains look great but the thrust bearings are a bit more worn. My rod bearings have a bit of wear so I am just going to replace all the bearings while Im in there. I will probably send my rods out to Rennsport to get rebuilt. I will update my other thread when I have a little time. Thanks again!

Mark - Looks like you are now doing the entire bottom too. Given the amount of time and effort you have in Lilly, it's probably fitting. You won't have to open it up again for a long time, if ever. Plus, when you do twin plug it at a later date, you'll have confidence the bottom is in good shape. I subscribed to Lilly, so I'll follow your progress. Have fun.

As much as I dont want to spend the money, I think it is necessary. It is going to push out the completion date a bit though. Luckily Im not in a hurry. After talking to Steve extensively, I have decided to use OEM GT3 bearings also. They are considerable more $ but hopefully worth it in the long run.

Steve's doing my rods too. He's going to rebush the small end, balance them all end to end and make sure they're all exactly the same length before reaming the bushings. Then ARP rod bolts. I keep telling Steve he needs to move his shop closer to Chicago.

Yep, my rods, dizzy and rockers going to rennsport tomorrow. Not doing ARP bolts though. cant swing it.

Ok, 12 cans of brake cleaner, 1 can of acetone, 32oz of rubbing alcohol, 1 can of Loctite Chisel, 2 32oz bottle of motorsports simple green, various stainless steel rifle brushes, stainless steel hand-held brushes, stiff plastic and long skinny plastic brushes and about 15 hours of labor over three weekends and I am declaring my case halves and chain housings - clean!

Next weekend will be dedicated to organizing and dress rehearsals of closing the case. I am also moving from the garage back to my workshop to close the case and install the P&Cs. I have to wheel the engine through our carpeted family room (a covert operation ;)) and over a small threshold, so a fully assembled engine is too heavy on the carpet. Plus, my daughter's bedroom is directly above my workshop so no noisy work before noon.

There are some stains remaining in the case, but no grime. The only way to remove the stains would have been some form of super abrasive. I mean to tell you I cranked on them with brake cleaner and a stainless steel brush, they are happy right where they are.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1264361018.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1264361100.jpg

looking good..
Bruce

Greg What did you decide to do about the pitting on that rocker? I have similar, possibly slightly less on the same one on my 70k 85? Coincidence? Great thread. Inspirational. thanks Doug

Doug - I am going to replace it with another used rocker. I know this isn't the recommended procedure, but it's hard for me to justify resurfacing both cams and all the rockers for small amount of pitting on a single rocker. I may regret the decision at a later date, but that is my plan for now.

It is interesting that your '85 has the same issue. I have not yet cleaned my cam towers. I haven't done any research yet, but want to see if there is a way I test the spray pattern out of the tube before I clean them. I will let you know what I come up with. Thanks for sharing.

12 Cans of Brake Clean....$40.00
32 oz. Rubbing Alcohol.....$9.00
1 Locktite Chisel...............$15.00
2 Simple green.................$12.00
TOTAL.......$76.00
LABOR.............................Priceless

Machine shop tank clean $45.00

Believe me, I looked locally for a place that would either tank or have a big washer that would do my case. However, the only local shop that had a tank wouldn't take my Porsche case asking if it had "those studs sticking out of it", and said it wouldn't fit in their machine. Besides, the first pass at removing the heavy grime was pretty fast. It's brushing in all the small crevices that took all the time. My guess is that to have the case reach the same degree of clean as mine is currently would have still required most of the materials and 10-12 hours of time after it was tanked. I would have happily paid $45 for 3-5 hours, but no place local would do it.

My tanking is a $50 deal
Bruce

Any update Greg?

Not much. At the risk of taking heat for spending even more time cleaning, I spent another four or five hours cleaning the cam towers. I found them really difficult to thoroughly clean. I moved my stand out of the garage to my workshop which is warmer. I also made the tools to hold the chain and rod out of heavy cardboard, which I read on the board someone saying it works great. I also put JB Weld on on the locations Wayne suggests in his book. No one around here sells Loctite 574 which I intend to use on the webs (only), 1194 elsewhere, so I am waiting for my next PP box to arrive for more progress. Also got 1211 for #8. I am going to try to close the case this weekend, but have to attend a memorial service for a neighbor, so may get hosed up.

What's going on with Lilly?

Sorry I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. Believe me I have done the same thing before. I just thought you might benefit from my experiences. I have learned to pick and choose my battles with motor rebuilds.

Looks good, and really, do keep us posted. Hell, I still learn things everyday.

Well, cases are split awaiting cleaning. Heads are done (new valves, springs, Ti retainers, twin plug all by Steve @ Rennsport) cam towers cleaned, new complete Viton gasket set and oem rings (also from Steve). The rods still need to be done and all new bearings ordered (GT3 rod bearings). PMO's should be delivered in a month or so. Im hoping to start putting it together this spring. I also need to get a dizzy made when I get the cash. And to think that this started with "just going to replace 2 head studs and it evolved into a 3.2ss motor with PMO 46's and twin plug....

Mark - Those are turning out to be very expensive head studs. You won't regret it.

We had 20" of snow yesterday. I thought an hour with the snow blower would take care of it, but it turned out to be more like five hours with the snow blower so didn't get much done.

I finally got the case halves together today. I consider this to be a critical operation, since screwing up means a lot of work and I hate leaks.

I put the thinnest humanly possible coating of 574 on the webs, 1194 on the perimeter, coated #8 o-ring with dow 111, and 1211 on #8 saddle.

1194 is goey and seems to skin pretty quick. I made certain I had a complete, but very thin layer, then hit the starting bell. I snugged up the both ends of the crank, then torque the mains per wayne's book and finished with the perimeter. It took me 35 minutes and I was ready to go and never stopped working. There is absolutely no time to screw around.

The ONLY thing that bothers me is not a lot of squeeze out. In fact, I would say no squeeze out in some places. I just don't see how you could put that stuff on thin and still achieve much squeeze out. It tacks up too quickly for it to migrate very far...imho.

Lots of people said to do this, it was very good advice.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265578310.jpg

My high-end cardboard rod holders.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265577957.jpg

The flash makes it difficult to see, but there is 1194 on the perimeter and 574 on the webs.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265578398.jpg

Lower my case-half with the hoist made it a much more controlled process for a one-man, first-time operation. I was glad I had the thought.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265578539.jpg

Finished product....well, finished for today.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265578631.jpg

Looks great Greg! Im jealous!

I like the rod holders....and the 2 block for lowering the case half, looking good
Bruce

It's been three weeks since my last post. I've been working, but it sure doesn't look like it. I would be embarrassed to tell anyone how many hours I have invested in the project, actually I haven't kept count, but it's a lot. I'm not fast by nature and since this is my first build, don't have the confidence to work quickly. I haven't made any major mistakes, or at least nothing apparent, so if I am successful that I have a motor that runs and doesn't look like the Valdez going down the street, I will attribute that to Wayne's book, the absolute amazing body of knowledge on the board, and taking my time.

Here is the last photo in the workshop before the trip back to the garage. I would have love to done the full assembly in my workshop, but it would have been too heavy to get back to the garage.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1267300870.jpg

I installed the cam towers on the heads, then installed them together on the cylinders. A bunch of people recommended it, and it was certainly easy. So was installing the towers on the heads. I put 1194 between the heads and towers, so I am pretty comfortable that it won't be a leaker. Time will tell. I hope to install the rockers and cams next week, maybe even set the timing.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1267301335.jpg

Very nice of you to share this seriously inspiring, informative endeavor...........

...nice read, bro'.....


Best,

Doyle

Greg,

I kind of freaked out myself, about having to carry that motor. And I carry heavy things for a living.

Had to carry my engine out of the basement and up the carpeted stairs,
when it became a short block.

Boy am I glad I did.

Would have been way to heavy as a long block.

Now it's in my living room, wife don't seem to mind. Actually looks nice. Blends in to, wouldn't you agree? http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/r...rch2010084.jpg


Mike.