1987 valve guide issue

[ODDJOB UNO]

i have a 1987 911 cab that we have built into a showroom stock car. bought with 110,00 from original owner. has 124K on it now. did leakdown, everything in spec except #4 cylinder, valve guide is suspect. have 19% leakdown. standard drill as far as some smoke on startup/warmup right side and then pretty much clears itself up. no excessive/very little oil useage. butttttttttttttttttt..................it aint right and thats just not a good thang. my buddy who used to be a wrench and is a cheap ass,stated "just run it until it uses a quart of oil every 100 miles." well sorry that just isnt right in my book.


so my evil plan while dropping engine/tranny is to put a new clutch,alum flywheel,T/O bearing, new set of rebuilt heads, and address any fuel line issues. also anything else that stares at us crosseyed up to not splitting the cases if we can avoid it.


as always "while yer in der" comes to mind and thats my question here. what ELSE should we really keep an eye out for??????

thanks

[JeremyD]

3.4 -

[ODDJOB UNO]

i know i know simple somewhat inexpensive increase in horseys, but then that blasts me out of showroom stock class.

[jimbauman]

Ya but I heard the other guy in Tibet has a 3.4....

[psalt]

My advice would be to find a mechanic that understands what a leakdown test is.......

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by psalt

My advice would be to find a mechanic that understands what a leakdown test is.......

your truly brilliant. your idiotic statement underscores your IQ.


we did a leakdown mr motormeister, thats why i mentioned 19% on #4 cylinder and all the others are fine within spec. thats why i mentioned the not so horrific oil useage.


all i want to know here, with 124K miles on it is, what else i should look for. aka the classic "while yer in der."


and yes my mechanic(who did the leakdown) is this lil hole in the wall international company that i'm personal friends with as well as race with, called PATRICK MOTORSPORTS.

now since we were so rudely interrupted........................


what should i keep an eye out for? im dropping motor and tranny at my house.


yes im fully prepared for some sphincter spazms on this and thats why i have waited and want to have an idea what all to keep my eyes peeled for, before we hand it to patrick.

i have read numerous posts and each and everyone is different with its own set of unique problems. if i took all that info involving these problems, it would lend itself to replacing everything.

[jimbauman]

Originally Posted by ODDJOB UNO

... i'm personal friends with as well as race with, called PATRICK MOTORSPORTS..

Well, *I'm* impressed.....

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by jimbauman

Well, *I'm* impressed.....

ya know its JACK ASSES like YOU with no valid info, no intelligent thought, and NO BRAINS that makes this place so damn FUN!



and i even mentioned this to some other p-car buddies even before i wrote this, that i would get some IDIOT LIKE YOU.


thanks again for PROVING ME RIGHT! never fails, LMFAO!

[jimbauman]

???? I said I was impressed! What more do you want? OK, I'm not impressed! Seriously, you should stop drinking.... it's affecting your judgement.... We all really do care for you....

[Jeff Alton]

Why do you think guides because of a poor leakdown? Guides will show in oil consumption and not necessarily in a leakdown. If you have a 19% leak in one cylinder, and you hear it out the intake manifold it means the valve is not sealing against the seat, which may or may not be a guide issue..... A motor with high oil consumption becuase of worn out guides can still post acceptable leakdown numbers.

That said, when you pull the motor, the smart thing will be to replace the guides and any out of spec valves at the same time as you complete your head rebuild.

Cheers

[Geronimo '74]

Nothing to add really, except for what Jeff already said, bad guides result mostly in oil consumption and some smoke, not always in a leakdown.

I would not drive it until it uses a quart every 100 miles!! Probably a typo, I think he meant a quart every 1000 miles... (I also would prefer to resolve issues immediately instead of monitoring them until you need to adress them)

Headstuds, I would replace those.

Rodbolts if your splitting the case.

[JeremyD]

Yeah - really what Jeff said - leak down may or may not show in a case of bad valve guides.
Mine did not - my leakdown was excellent under 5% cold engine. Compression was excellent.
Now if the valve guide is so worn that is causes seating issues - then yes - but if you are that far along - then you also risk dropping one of those valve heads into one of those pistons - then you will have an expensive rebuild on your hands (do a search on Kurt V - now ROT 911) his valve was split - causing poor leak down results.

I ended up replacing 6 valves because they were so worn. I'd do headstuds while you are there - and I'd do ARP rod bolts and split the case. Bet you $100 that your layshaft bearings are showing copper and need replacing.

[ODDJOB UNO]

our train of thought to get max pizzazz out of this is to just(?) replace all the heads. new valve springs,valves intake and exhaust, all new berylium or unobtanium valve guides.

now as we delve into this, it could turn into splitting the case. then rod bolts and anything else we find that doesnt pass muster. i have waited quite awhile for this, reading what i can find and preparing my wallet for the pucker factor. i am not doing this twice. and considering it does get run on the track 1-3 times a year as well as spirited highway driving, i sure as hell dont wanna get stuck or splatter it apart somewhere because i was cheap.


its a given we are doing clutch/t/o bearing and a alum flywheel while in der.


i would love a 3.4. but then im butting heads with some ser-i-ass horseypower in another class. and as all of us know who have been around these or any racing HP=$$$$. and i honestly have too many different interests that all cost alot to do or maintain. showroom stock trips my trigger for quite a few reasons. i still get my track ya-ya's, its reliable HP,ie. not a grenade, the uber expense isnt there(relatively speaking), its still semi comfortable for wifey to get in for a road trip(and that gents is a big plus+).


and yes once again my buddy came over yesterday and gave me the "cheap ass" speech re: "just run it until its eating alot of oil" thats not me and i cant live with it anymore(justification). some mornings cold or hot out it smokes to beat the band at start up. some mornings hot or cold out it doesnt smoke. when it does smoke you have to walk upwind or DIE!


and the biggest factor..............i just DONT HAVE A WARM FUZZY!


now we are entertaining the idea of "one last run" before eng/tranny comes out. the reason was i was invited by patrick to go down to INDEMOTORSPORTS.com's track in wilcox arizona the 15/16 of may. a road course par excellance. the weather will still be nice and it is one hell of a track. plus its private. so i can learn it and run it at my leisure instead of 42 other mongrel dawgs trying to rape my lil super duper cab from hell like at calif motor speedway/PIR/firebird raceways. always a hoot with 42 other cars trying to learn a track. anyways this a great opportunity as the summer nears and temps skyrocket, this will be the last hurrah until late october for the majority of racing here in arizona. so its a great chance to shake it down solo or with my younger son if he decides to go with me.


i know once i get my eng/tranny to patrick it will be in the UBEREST of UBEREST hands as far as meticulous teardown/examination/rebuild to the nats ass precision. already he said if we split cases we are replacing rod bearings and rod bolts and balancing crank. he leaves no stone unturned starting at the bottom going to the top, but the downside is obviously more $$$$$$ poured into it, which of course if i ever sell it i will never see a return on. so as you can see another engine rebuild start at (1) pricepoint rapidly hitting another higher pricepoint before my sphincter can slap shut!


its 23 years old. im 2nd owner. 1st owner drove it less than 5000 a year. fairly good maint,never wrecked. i have uberized the hell out of it, so i have no problem with this. i just dont want to replace everything for the sake of it. i also dont want to cut myself short on items.

[Eagledriver]

You may not have a problem. One bad leakdown can be caused by a piece of carbon in the valve seat. This can easily happen when you remove the sparkplug to put in the leakdown tool. I'd run your track day and then do another leakdown or compression test. By the way, 19 percent is not terrible. If it's on the intake valve or rings you can run a long time that way. If it's on the exhaust valve it will get worse as the valve burns, but you can monitor it's progress and fix it if that happens. Quit worrying and drive the car until it starts burning excessive amounts of oil or the leak gets worse.

-Andy

[Porshaah]

ODDJOB UNO

The mileage isn't too much of a concern as the 23 year old rubber. Split the case (i.e. since your half way there and appear to be a frugal perfectionist) slip in new bearings (i.e. they're not too expensive) if the crank is still within spec and if you decide not to split the case try and slip in any rubber seal you can. The car should be good for another 23 years - good selling point. Quote from Chico Escuela - "Not rubber! Rubber break! But I can't talk about it. Back to you, Hane."

Bill

[304065]

Oddjob----

19% in just ONE jug?

I think the message embedded in some of the snarky replies is that a leakdown should be able to pinpoint the precise location. If the intake's leaking you should hear it from the schnorkel. If from the breather, from the oil tank. From the exhaust, well, from the pipe on that side. I like to put a rubber glove over the pipe and see if I can get it to inflate.

Anyway, I agree with the idea that it could be a hunk of carbon stuck in the valve. Often times the carbon flakes off when you pull the plug. I would run through the standard de-coking drill, i.e. seafoam in the vacuum lines followed by a few minutes of WOT operation under load. If that doesn't work, pull the valve cover and use a plastic hammer to tap, tap tap on the adjuster screws. Even the El Cheapo leakdown tester is good enough to tell you whether you're on the right path.

As far as what to expect when you tear it down. . . my own view is that it's only a few more hours to split the case so budget for main bearings, rod bearings, ARP rod bolts (a MUST for the 3,2 motor), intermediate shaft bearings, #8 bearing, both seals, gasket set (Reinz) and all the other miscellaneous chingaderras that go into the engine rebuild.

Good luck!

p.s. I went to Westwood. . . I get it.

[ODDJOB UNO]

thats what i wanted to know. THANK YOU to all of you with INTELLIGENT ANSWERS!


i have been talked into and my arm twisted to go run at wilcox,az. before teardown.



my buddy is foaming at the mouth to go with me. so we will do this.


a few hours on the track should not hurt it. as with anything its always a gamble but what the hell ya only live ONCE.



plus the fact if it craps on me, i can drop it off at patricks on the way back into town. budget myself for having the coors light semi truck pull up to patricks and pull the damn engine/tranny while on a lift instead of mickey mousing it at home with jackstands and floor jacks.


i'll just have to sit wifey down and explain to her................"ITS FOR THE TEAM" and my mental stability and how COOL SHE LOOKS IN IT, and how she should LOVE AND CHERISH IT! LOL! yeah right!


as some of you mentioned...........its only a couple more hours to crack the case and replace rod bolts,bearings etc. thats a HUGE WARM FUZZY.


its a toy thats all. another very expensive toy.

[aws]

I am surprised that nobody mentioned that tracking a 3.2 with 9mm rod bolts is a serious accident waiting to happen. I'm not worried about the leak-down, I'm worried about the stretched rod bolt (from a previous over-rev you don't know about) that may be waiting to let go. ANYONE who regularly tracks a stock 3.2 without doing something about the rod bolts is eventually unhappy with the results. Ask Patrick, I am sure he will agree.

aws

[Geronimo '74]

Originally Posted by aws

I am surprised that nobody mentioned that tracking a 3.2 with 9mm rod bolts is a serious accident waiting to happen. I'm not worried about the leak-down, I'm worried about the stretched rod bolt (from a previous over-rev you don't know about) that may be waiting to let go. ANYONE who regularly tracks a stock 3.2 without doing something about the rod bolts is eventually unhappy with the results. Ask Patrick, I am sure he will agree.

aws

ARP rodbolt upgrade has been suggested more than once in this thread.
You must have missed that.

[cgarr]

So what did the wifey say? I need to know for future reference.