Need some help

[Daviboy]

Hi guys,
Well as some may know I have recently been re-building my engine with varying degrees of success. What I have is basically a stock euro sc but with the addition of 964 profile cams, custom JE pistons 9.8:1 made for 964 cams. Heads rebuilt with all new valves and springs etc. I followed all the advise in Waynes book and the board and thought I had it perfect, I set the overlap at TDC to 1.26mm which I believe is 964 spec. However when I went to start the engine it would not run, checked all the usual stuff and still would not start so I began to suspect cam timing. Pulled valve covers and chain covers and set engine to TDC for #1. Discovered left cam was out of sync with right so then loosened off the cam nut on the left bank, cam must have moved while tightening??
So reset and re-did the cam and timing, re-assembled and tried again. Nothing well not nothing it fired and ran maybe for a revolution then died and would not re-start. I did not know what was wrong so had a leakdown test done and seems I have a bent valve somewhere on #1 dont know if exhaust or intake yet. I have had to come back to work so now I am trying to gather the required information to get this fixed when I get home 3rd November. I plan on tearing engine back down to check all cylinder heads/valve, then re-start the cam timing process. I have good spark and all ignition componemts check out fine. Any help advise in getting this set up running appreciated. Many thanks to all who have helped so far..

[Daviboy]

I may just have found the answer to my own question but someone please correct me if I am wrong.

This is the procedure I used to time the cams

1 Set engine at TDC for #1 both cams dot upwards
2 Installed pin in sprocket and tightened down cam nut on left side, right side loose no pin installed
2 Set #1 intake valve lash to 0.1mm
3 Place dial indicator on #1 intake valve retainer
4 Rotated engine until dial indicator starts to move then slowly till reading 1.26mm on dial indiactor
5 Loosened off cam nut removed pin and then rotated to Z1 mark
6 Re-install pin and tighten down cam nut
7 Checked by rotating engine through 360 deg all good at 1.26mm overlap.
8 Moved to right side and repeated procedure

However I think that I had #1 at TDC instead of rotating to get #4 at TDC. I believe from what I have read I should have done left side #1 then rotated engine to #4 TDC set right cam with dot upwards then repeated procedure for #1. Is this correct?

[Flat6pac]

You have to pin both cams in the dot up position
set 1 intake to .1mm lash
dial indicate #1, valve is closed, rocker .1 lash
360 degrees, dial indicate reading set to 1.3 or 4 as close above as you can get to spec range which is up to 1.4.
pin it and take tension torquing for reading
You want to match as close as you can say 1.35 or what ever your reading is on #1 before going on #4 but save the number. I like to write it on the top of the chain box so I dont forget
720 degrees and get a final dial number on #1 before going to #4
set lash on #4, youre on TDC for #4 at this point because you have movement on the left side #4 valve is closed, set valve lash .1mm #4
install dial indicator #4 , turn 360 degrees and you have measurement and you try to match the left side numbers.
There is times that you have to roll the cam gear to another tooth to get the number you want. The number usually roll about 1.5mm between one pinning and the one next to it.
Bruce

[Daviboy]

Bruce,
Thanks but not sure if that has cleared things up in my mind. I have 964 cam profile so 1.26mm is my overlap setting.
I dont understand what you mean by
"set lash on #4, youre on TDC for #4 at this point because you have movement on the left side #4 valve is closed, set valve lash .1mm #4
install dial indicator #4 , turn 360 degrees and you have measurement and you try to match the left side numbers"

I did #1 and measured valve lift at TDC 1.26mm, rotatated crank 720 deg to confirm reading. Moved to #4 set cam with dot up pinned and tightened cam nut. Rotated crank 360 deg and loosened cam nut removed pin set #4 intake at 1.25mm was as close as I could get re-pinned and tightened cam nut, rotated crank 720 deg to confirm measurement. Went back to #1 to double check all good...

[Flat6pac]

I did #1 and measured valve lift at TDC 1.26mm, rotatated crank 720 deg to confirm reading. Moved to #4 set cam with dot up pinned and tightened cam nut. Rotated crank 360 deg and loosened cam nut removed pin set #4 intake at 1.25mm was as close as I could get re-pinned and tightened cam nut, rotated crank 720 deg to confirm measurement. Went back to #1 to double check all good...
__________________
When you go to #4 the dot has to be down because that is the time the valve is closed. The dots are up only when youre doing #1, both dots are down when youre doing #4.
The spec on the cam is out as far as 1.40. I always try to get as high to top spec as I can because the chain stretch and settle in

Bruce

[Daviboy]

Bruce,
Again thanks this explains things I was doing #4 with both cams dot up no wonder I screwed it up. This makes sense to me now. I will tackle this when I get home although I will drop the engine and strip down to check the valves in all 6 heads, then re-build and set cam timing properly this time. I think I was in such a rush to get the engine back in the car that I did not absorb the instruction properly.

[Daviboy]

Just to confirm I got a similar answer to Bruces over on Rennlist so I know I definetely screwed up. I remember reading in Waynes book about having the dot facing down while doing the right side and thought no thats just a typo. What an idiot trust the information is what I now say. Anyway many thanks to Bruce for the information

[Daviboy]

Well I got home Friday last week and dropped the engine and second time around took just over two hours start to finish. Stripped off the CIS and tore into her. Today I took off heads and cam towers as a single piece. Confirmed all valves are good, re-assembled heads and cam towers had a bit of a panic attack when I dropped the left side woodruff key into the engine. Managed to get the damned thing back out after a lot of cursing and jiggery pokery. Now back at cam timing stage, got sprockets back on and pinned, dial gauge installed ready for the morning. Going to set overlap at 1.4mm (964 top end) and call it good. I somehow managed to crack the repaired airbox I had installled when I dropped the engine, but no worries got a new one sitting on the bench and now that I think of it I really should put the new one in after spending ~$6k rebuilding. Anyway will update as I go (again) and hope to have the engine back in the car for Friday, really would love to run her in Saturday. Kids have been bugging me about when the P car is going to be back on the road, even though the eldest daughter used to get embarressed when I picked her up from school, I think really she enjoyed it.

[lindy 911]

Many try to over-think the cam timing process; it's really very basic:

1. Set crank to TDC
2. Install cams with dots facing up. This puts both cams in rough timing.
3. Install chain, gears and idler sprockets per Waynes book.
4. Pin BOTH sides and snug nuts on sprockets.
5. Install #1 rocker and adjust clearance to .004"
6. Install dial indicator so that the pin rides on the outer edge of the spring retainer.
7. Pre-load the indicator and then set the dial to "0".
8. Rotate the engine 360 degrees watching the crank pulley.
9. At TDC, after the 360 degree rotation, the intake valve on #1 should have moved towards open by 1.4 mm. If it is not 1.4 mm, remove the cam nut, pull the pin and rotate the cam until it does read 1.4 mm and re-pin. Replace the pin and nut and tighten. Rotate the engine a few full revolutions until you see the #1 intake starts to move. Find TDC again and check Dial indicator for 1.4 mm.
10. Install and adjust #4 intake rocker.
11. Set up dial indicator on #4.
13. Rotate engine until the rocker on #4 begins to move.
14. At TDC check for 1.4 mm.
Repeat adjustment as you did on #1.

Lindy

[Daviboy]

Thx lindy nice and concise. I got the timing nailed today managed to get exactly 1.4mm on the left bank and 1.39mm on the right. Its so easy when you dont over think it. I must have roatated that crank about 20 times each side to confirm once I had the chain tensioners installed and the reading came out spot on every time. So moved on to checking the valve to piston clearance and on the left bank had ~1.75mm on the intake and 2.5 on the exhaust, on the right bank there was a bigger difference, ~2mm intake and 3 exhaust so thats all good. Re-installed the rockers and set lash on all six. Buttoned up the chain covers installed the dizzy, and got the valve covers back on. So tomorrow I will get the shroud and wiring harness back on, strip the cracked airbox out and replace with the new one. So hopefully by Thursday morning I should be ready to put the engine back in the car ready for start up...

[Daviboy]

HI guys,
Well got the engine back in late last night so had to wait till this morning to try and start her. Filled with oil and cranked with no spark oil pressure rose and light went out all god. Reinstalled relay and cranked her over, got a couple of backfires throught the airbox. I definetely have the dizzy installed correctly I put it in after I set all the valve gaps before replacing the chain covers. I have spark and I have all plug wires correctly installed. Gave up for the day as my battery booster is to low to continue today. I need some indication as to what else to try I am very frustrated now.

[lindy 911]

Pull the rocker cover on intake #1. Rotate the engine until the intake rocker starts down then continue to TDC mark on the pulley (just over 360 degrees). The valve will be closed now and you're at the top of the power stroke. Pull the cap from the dizzy and check to see where the rotor is pointing; it should be lining up with the wire in the cap for #1. If it's not you need to re-set the dizzy.

Lindy

[Flat6pac]

The rotor isnt where is is suposed to be, follow the previous post. If everything else is right, lift the airflow sensor to charge the system with fuel so youre not too lean, and hit the key. The spark is where it belongs, the cams are where they belong, the engine has to start.
Bruce

[Daviboy]

Bruce/Lindy,
I was sure the dizzy was in the correct orientation however I removed the upper left valve cover and rotated the crank to ensure the #1 intake valve was closed at TDC removed dizzy cap and the rotor was pointing to #1 plug wire position. Buttoned up the valve cover again and tried cranking her. Still nothing just the occasional backfire through the airbox. I had the wife crank her while adjusting the dizzy to see if I was getting spark at the exact right position and still nothing. I am at my wits end now just dont know where I have gone wrong here

[Flat6pac]

Davie, I would put it in 180 out and see what happens. Put the rotor on #1 when the pulley is Z1 and on #4 cyl. Remember, youre turning CCW and you want the rotor approaching the notch on the dist. body
If you are putting out a spark you have to be very close to running
Pull the #4 wire, closest on the right and put a spark plug in it see if you have spark by grounding it to the engine case.
lift the air flow sensor to make sure you have fuel into the cylinders

Bruce

[Daviboy]

Bruce,
I put the dizzy in 180 out and nothing so changed it back again. This morning I went to check spark and found that all my plugs were loose, this I had not checked. They were loose as I had a compression test done previously and had assumed they were all tightened again never assume is the thing. Anyway tightened all plugs and rechecked wiring to the plugs. Cranked her and she sounds as if she is trying to fire now getting a few puffs from the exhaust and the backfiring is gone. Now though my booster is flat again. I am going to see a man later who may give me some pointers a well respected 25 year P car mechanic so will see if he can help out.

[lindy 911]

Sounds like a fuel issue now. You need a fully charged battery without the help of a "booster". Full voltage is required for the ignition to work properly, especially with cold start-up. You can add some fuel with a small squirt bottle through the barn door and into the intake. Not too much or you could get hydro lock, just a squirt or two and then try to fire.

Lindy

[Daviboy]

Lindy,
Ok have the battery on charge at the moment. I reckon this might be the solution, do I just squirt fuel down through the pop off valve? Should I need to do this as the cold start valve appears to be working ok?

[Flat6pac]

Lift the airflow sensor and that will charge the system. When you feel the back pressure you have fuel. Raw gas in the airbox is a fire hazard because it will ignite on a backfire.
Bruce

[Daviboy]

Bruce,
I think this is the better solution will give this a try tomorrow battery is still charging want to get it at max charge beofre I crank her over