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IMI High Torque Starter and SC Engine Rebuild

I picked up an IMI High Torque starter (from our host) for my 82 SC engine that is currently going through a rebuild. I know this may sound like a silly question, but is their any harm in using a higher torque starter for the initial firing of the engine. I would not think so, but figured that I would ask.

Thanks,

Chuck
Old 09-05-2011, 03:31 PM
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I have had one since 97. Just sent it out to be re-built last year as it finally failed on me. Rebuilding cost me something like $65 + s/h. I think it is a great piece. Starts the car one shot like pushing a button.

-Michael
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:22 AM
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High torque starter install notes

I just got through putting in my first Pelican high torque starter (HTS) today, I got sick of the solenoid jamming on 5 Bosch starters in 13 years, thought this info may help you:

1. You may have to rotate the nose to clear the hot air hoses, etc. I note yours is an 82 so don't know, but on my 85 Carrera, I had to rotate it TWO holes from our host's shipped position, and not the ONE others have mentioned to achieve good clearance.

2. I called IMI this morning to get the torque spec on the two allen-head bolts that you need to R&R to do that - they said it is 90 inch-lbs. Use a high-quality 3mm allen tool or you'll strip something...

3. I used 3 metric washers on the allen-nut side (i.e., no shim action) of each starter stud to pad out the HTS flange to same thickness as Bosch starter. If you don't, one or both studs may not have enough thread to run the nuts home, and even if they do, you risk rounding off your nut or tool as it gets pushed out as the stud runs up inside the nut. Please note - standard SAE washers that fit the studs are too large outside diameter and will bind up on the starter nose casting

4. It's good to put the old and new starters side-by-side to verify mounting surface to pinion in/out positions on both, and decide how many washers to use. Some folks claim to have had issues with different pinion in/out distances, but it seems mostly with non-Pelican supplied units, which often required shims &/or bound up on/damaged the starter ring, with varying degrees of trouble and aggro.

5. It's much easier to R&R than the Bosch unit (using g/box hug of course) and you can use a shorter extension on the mounting bolts.

6. As per the Pelican 911 Tech Article, Starter System Troubleshooting, I added diode across the start terminal and ground on the solenoid. I fitted a male spade terminal to the screw holding the solenoid cap on (the one nearest the motor) for the ground connection, and put a piggy-back on the start terminal, then crimped two female spades on the diode, heat shrinked (shrunk?!) over it (making sure to know which end was cathode/stripe/band and putting that on Start term). I have a hot start relay kit ready to install too but will see how this works a while first. Diode - elsewhere 1N4003 or 1N4004 suggested, I had an FR507 (1000V/5A yup probably overkill) in my electronic junk box so used that.

7. Finally, installed, it sounds a lot like one of those squeaky-critter Toyota starters... "neuu-neuu-neuu" but after 10 starts in shop, it does seem to start the engine more quickly... so first impressions are... great!
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Old 10-04-2011, 03:58 PM
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I've run one I bought from Gene Brown's outfit for VW beetles, and have run it on my track car (no heater hose issues there) for years now with nary a problem. Lighter, and very reliable. Had no problems turning over my latest motor with 12 to 1 compression.

Barry - why did you think you needed a diode? Porsche didn't use this on the CIS motors and before, and I don't think on the 3.2s with their ECU. I'm guessing they still don't, despite the large number of computational circuits and heavy reliance on electronics. Lack of one has not killed my Electromotive HPV1 ignition (though that is very robust), nor its replacement with an Electromotive fuel injection and ignition system with an ECU. Does the starter or its solenoid produce that much back EMF?

Or is this just an "I'm an electronics guy and I have diodes so why not" deal? Even then it represented yet another couple of steps in the job.
Old 10-04-2011, 10:07 PM
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"....it sounds a lot like one of those squeaky-critter Toyota starters..."

That's because they probably use the same Denso starter guts.

I suspect the torque at the pinion gear/ring gear is the same for both starters (factory and gear-reduction). The former develops its torque at a lower motor rpm; the gear-reduction motors develop their torque at higher motor speed. End result, same pinion gear (cranking) speed, different starter motor speed.

Sherwood
Old 10-04-2011, 10:57 PM
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Walt & Sherwood - I've written two ahem, longer and "thoughtful" replies to you both now over the last hour and both times they just ZAP disappeared off my screen. It is very annoying!

So I'll cut my losses and say just this (written off line):

Walt - you are right, e-guys can't help it. But google "diode quenching" for why it's a good idea regardless (or you may know this and just wonder why anyone would bother!), especially on our older cars while the starter contact on the ignition switch is still working...

Sherwood - exactly!!! It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek as elsewhere on forums I learned that Toyota dealers can provide replacement parts (such as a solenoid contact kit for ≈$25), so indeed it's a Denso motor/guts as you said. Some say they think it sounds cool... I only like that it may, like Walt's, start reliably for years, lasting way longer than the Bosch rebuilds, however it sounds!

Certainly motor design has become more efficient since the Bosch was designed, so the "little high-torque starter that could" may well have higher torque and more pinion rpm under load than the OEM starter for the same electrical budget. Considering it weighs, what, half the OEM unit, that represents an efficiency increase even if it were the same pinion torque & rpm...
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:38 PM
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From the Bosch (Relay) Guide, Page 3: "Whenever installing a relay, use a quenching diode between terminals 85 and 86, with a cathode to the positive terminal to prevent the inductive spike on relay turn-off."

The Bosch Guide is at:
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CHgQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dlcparts.com%2Fimages%2FBosch Guide.pdf&ei=s_iLTv_rGIivsAKn2aGYBA&usg=AFQjCNHNj41ERieQRuUUuQ0rZVrv9lZRDQ)

After all, an automotive solenoid is a relay with big contacts too...
Why not include a diode in the relay itself? Once you install a diode, the coil becomes polarity sensitive, but some relays do include a diode... the same guide states "Basically, it doesn’t matter whether pin 85 or 86 is used for ground or 12 volt if the relay does not have a diode across the coil. Bosch states that 86 should be the 12V connection and 85 should be the ground since newer relays come with an internal diode."
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Last edited by BarryJB; 10-05-2011 at 12:09 AM.. Reason: clarification
Old 10-05-2011, 12:00 AM
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I've used one on my high compression 3.0 for a few years now. like it a lot, never even slows down, no matter what. but does sound a little 'funny'.
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Old 10-06-2011, 02:28 PM
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