964, NOT just another engine build with oil leaks

[500_19B]

There are always two sides to each coin. I will reserve personal judgment for the time being. Bruce's reputation on here is very good, and that does not come easy on Pelican. I hope there is a good way forward for all involved.

[RideSober]

Frankly if it works out that Bruce comes through next week, that would be great! I am beyond frustrated with this aggravation, but of course I hope he does come through so it can just end. I just want my car back with the contracted work done as agreed, and paid in full.

ALl I really want is to move past this, but as the saying goes: "Sometimes we need to hope for the best, but prepare for the worst".

I am still hopeful, but we will see what happens. And if Bruce does come through, just as soon as I can verify everything is done properly, I will be the first person to sing his praises, loudly, in public!!!

In terms of questioning my investment cost, it might not really matter about any opinions here as I suspect no one from this board will be involved in rendering a decision on this matter, but inquiring minds always want to know right...

If there is any question (not that it really matters) here is the detail.

Abbott Payments Form Date Received Abbott
$2,500.00 Cash 8/31/2011
$2,500.00 Check 2412 12/6/2011
$600.00 Check 2416 12/23/2011
$1,900.00 Check 2434 2/15/2012
$7,500.00 Total

After looking back in my records, my actual costs of items sent to Bruce for install on my car were slightly more than I recalled. These are from my actual records:

Engine Insulation $72.28
Retaining Clips $20.00
Plugs, Caps, Rotors $185.49
K&N 33-2077 Air Filter $27.00
Distributor Belt Replacement $180.00
Hargett Billett Valve Covers $644.75
Used Later Style Mahle P/Cs $300.00
Ollies machine shop work $1,293.00
Valve Job, 964 Update, Recondition P/Cs
Exhaust Bypass $229.00

Supertec Head Studs $635.00

Misc Shipping Costs $176

Parts Sub Total $3,762.52

So I have $11,262.52 total invested, in just these parts and services.

Sorry for not being more specific and clear about my investment costs.

Still hoping this works out

[RideSober]

Originally Posted by lindy 911

I'm having no luck finding a post by you looking for advice for a re-builder. Can you provide that so we can connect the dots?

Sure, here you go... Last post in this thread, "I dragged it home"

Best Bet For Cylinder Head Rebuild and Seal Replacement?

[lindy 911]

You stated that you took advice from this board to use flat6pack to rebuild your cars engine and have some minor body work done. The post you provided us with above references getting in touch with flat6pack to get answers to your questions about where to send your heads. It appears that you already had a "German Mechanic" doing the tear-down and re-build. I don't see where anyone suggested you use Bruce for the job at all but simply get his opinion on where to send the heads.

You seem to have bad luck when it comes to cars and repairs. Your other post about the body shop is interesting as well. I have no dog in this hunt but can tell you the adage about squeaky wheels getting the grease does not always play out to be true. That might be the issue.

[RideSober]

Originally Posted by lindy 911

You stated that you took advice from this board to use flat6pack to rebuild your cars engine and have some minor body work done. The post you provided us with above references getting in touch with flat6pack to get answers to your questions about where to send your heads. It appears that you already had a "German Mechanic" doing the tear-down and re-build. I don't see where anyone suggested you use Bruce for the job at all but simply get his opinion on where to send the heads.

You seem to have bad luck when it comes to cars and repairs. Your other post about the body shop is interesting as well. I have no dog in this hunt but can tell you the adage about squeaky wheels getting the grease does not always play out to be true. That might be the issue.

Easy, Bruce told me to bring him the car, he would take care of everything.

So you dug up my post about the poor work on my BMW, and throw that our here to question my character? I think that is, well, like if you don't like the message, just shoot the messenger?

I would gladly communicate about the poor paint finish work on my 1 month old BMW after a lady backed into it in a drive through causing about $3700 in damge, but I don't think this is the time or place. Unless the only motivation to dig that up was really based on looking for some potential fuel for character assasination, otherwise I think it is pretty clearly irrelevant.

Look, I like Bruce, as others do as well. I don't want him harmed, I don't want his character tarnished. I want so much to have an opportunity to write a glowing review of his workmanship and laugh about this a few months from now tooling around in my Porsche, and I hope I have that opportunity. I just need Bruce to realize he can't simply keep doing nothing like he has for the past couple months, and expect the problem to just go away. It won't just go away.

Frankly I have not complained to Bruce, at all, ever. I have intentionally stayed totally out of his hair, and let him work at his pace. NO SQUEAKY WHEEL AT ALL.

I really never even asked for any status updates, until a couple weeks after he had asked for final payment, and I had heard nothing but silence with no progress updates.

After full final payment, anyone would expect progress updates, no?

And after being told the car is ready and driving a long distance to see nothing done and a car that won't even run...

Well who can honestly say that if this was your story, you would not lose your patience after a wasted 500 mile round trip? If you are being honest, you would agree that it would not matter if this was your best friend, or your brother, if this was your story, there is simply not any human being that would not lose their patience after adding that expensive insult to injury.

So let's all hope the problem gets resolved. Please join me in encouraging Bruce to get the car repaired and returned.

To show my character, if he actually makes good on everything by next week as he promised and we can avoid any further escalation, I will in return be very happy to come back on here, and edit every word I have said to retract all my negative comments. Frankly I can't think of anything that would make me happier.

[onboost]

Hmmmmm,

In you're previous thread you state that you've "lurked long enough soaking up some of the knowledge." Sooo basically long enough to garner the info needed to purchase and figure out where to have repairs needed made.. That's cool, but you really haven't contributed to the Pelican community in as much Bruce has? Understanding that some money has changed hands, things aren't like you expect within the time line that you would like... but as most have stated, I'm sure there is another side to this story as well. You also say that you "followed the advice here on Pelican and took the car to Bruce Abbott," I only see one post by a newby that merely references a thread posted by Bruce regarding another build, along with the thought of "if I was you."

However, I've always known Bruce to be very conscientious about his work, fair in his pricing, and reasonable in his turn-around time..all things being considered. I also know that this car has had a couple of issues that needed sorting out, & tracking down to get just right. And I too know that time liness get pushed back when waiting on parts, machine work, etc.. and other jobs come and go during that stall time.. and just because arts finally show up doesn't mean that what I'm in the middle of now gets dropped so I can move back to the other car that was waiting... not saying that's the issue but it happens I don't care where you go.

Not sure what you paid for your car, where it lived most of its life, but as a 90 C2 with 154K on the clock I'm sure you expected to need a reseal shortly after purchase. Unless of course the previous owner had records indicating that a re-seal, or heads had been done.

You also stated in the previous thread that the local mechanic was a German Car Specialist with a lot of Porsche experience, how/why did you end up going to Bruce and not sticking with this "specialist" instead?

You also mentioned using Turbo Performance Center, they're not in Gaithersburg as you state, they're in Jessup. Further, I doubt that you would have been supplying the sublet machine work and parts to them as Bruce has so graciously allowed you to do and your $3000 rebuild budget you mentioned in the thread would have have started out blown as shop cost would have been a lot higher.

Hey, not sermon, just a thought!

[RideSober]

Onboost, are you familiar with the early 964 Porsche update?

OK no challenge you are right, about contributions but I guess so far my only contribution to Pelican is funding the 964 project in this thread???

I'm not slamming Bruce he knows a lot, but from my discussions after he had my car, it became clear Bruce was not yet familiar with the early 964 update (he certainly is now), and aparently he spoke with his machine shop about ideas, and they were not either. I think you would find this is not something you would want anyone learning about through trial and error on your own cylinder heads.

Check it out if interested, there is a PDF Porsche tech bulletin you can find on the internet. Early 964s had no cylinder head gasket, the heads needed to be sent to a shop that knows how to machine them, and the cylinders needed replacement as well. That is why the heads went out to Ollies, not just for my convenience, but because it became very clear I needed to source a shop with the knowledge and experience. I sourced that service, I incurred the cost, and I got no relief from the price I was quote by Bruce for rebuild including valve job. I accepted it, you are totally right, there were other trade offs, given the setbacks Bruce had incurred, it seemed fair enough at the time.

Did I cry about it??? No, not at all. Did I cry when Bruce told me a couple months later that despite being relieved of the valve job cost he would need 10% more money than he had originally quoted me? No, not at all, I paid it.

The $3000 price about which you inquire was a rough estimated ADDITIONAL price I had heard only to perform the Porsche 964 update with new P/Cs, the rebuild would have of course been at normal costs. I think that might have been more clear to those who were more familiar with the early 964 cylinder head update.

Please don't ask me to explain why I did what I did, and everyone I was talking to at that time trying to come up with a plan. I was calling all around the region, and all around the country. I think I have made it clear if I could replay this right now based on my experience so far, I certainly would. Hopefully Bruce will still come through as he has for others in the past, and my opinion will change for the best, and in the end it will all work out well for all.

[RideSober]

So according to Bruce, the motor is back out on the motor stand, and Bruce is working on it.

[onboost]

Originally Posted by RideSober

Onboost, are you familiar with the early 964 Porsche update?

OK no challenge you are right, about contributions but I guess so far my only contribution to Pelican is funding the 964 project in this thread???

I'm not slamming Bruce he knows a lot, but from my discussions after he had my car, it became clear Bruce was not yet familiar with the early 964 update (he certainly is now), and aparently he spoke with his machine shop about ideas, and they were not either. I think you would find this is not something you would want anyone learning about through trial and error on your own cylinder heads.

Check it out if interested, there is a PDF Porsche tech bulletin you can find on the internet. Early 964s had no cylinder head gasket, the heads needed to be sent to a shop that knows how to machine them, and the cylinders needed replacement as well. That is why the heads went out to Ollies, not just for my convenience, but because it became very clear I needed to source a shop with the knowledge and experience. I sourced that service, I incurred the cost, and I got no relief from the price I was quote by Bruce for rebuild including valve job. I accepted it, you are totally right, there were other trade offs, given the setbacks Bruce had incurred, it seemed fair enough at the time.

Did I cry about it??? No, not at all. Did I cry when Bruce told me a couple months later that despite being relieved of the valve job cost he would need 10% more money than he had originally quoted me? No, not at all, I paid it.

The $3000 price about which you inquire was a rough estimated ADDITIONAL price I had heard only to perform the Porsche 964 update with new P/Cs, the rebuild would have of course been at normal costs. I think that might have been more clear to those who were more familiar with the early 964 cylinder head update.

Please don't ask me to explain why I did what I did, and everyone I was talking to at that time trying to come up with a plan. I was calling all around the region, and all around the country. I think I have made it clear if I could replay this right now based on my experience so far, I certainly would. Hopefully Bruce will still come through as he has for others in the past, and my opinion will change for the best, and in the end it will all work out well for all.

Yes, familiar with the issue and the service bulletin.. and the advice has always been to find if the update and reseal has been performed on 89, 90, and early 91 production 964's.. of not price should be adjusted or walk from that car.. although, some never leaked.

However, from the thread it appears that this issue was already understood when Bruce came into the picture as you were already in the process of addressing the heads and the gasket issue.

Regarding the $3000 rough estimate price you refer to above for new p/c's is not very clear to me as I'm not sure how you would arrive @ that number? New p/c's clearly would cost you above and beyond $3k.. as would the labor.. add to that the cost of doing the heads, along with the additional other bits that any worth while tech will find wrong and you're well north $8k.

I'm sure Bruce will get it right for you but please don't think he's gett'n rich on you either.. he's not. However, he's a good guy.. he's sharp, and he's "about his work" as we say. Just be patient..

Regards,

[mercury26]

Originally Posted by onboost

Regarding the $3000 rough estimate price you refer to above for new p/c's is not very clear to me as I'm not sure how you would arrive @ that number? New p/c's clearly would cost you above and beyond $3k.. as would the labor.. add to that the cost of doing the heads, along with the additional other bits that any worth while tech will find wrong and you're well north $8k.

Hmm, not necessarily. I purchase brand new set (all six) Mahle pistons and cylinders for my 911 SC for less then $1,800. I purchased them from a Mahle retailer, not from an individual. Good prices are out there, if you search a little.

[onboost]

Originally Posted by mercury26

Hmm, not necessarily. I purchase brand new set (all six) Mahle pistons and cylinders for my 911 SC for less then $1,800. I purchased them from a Mahle retailer, not from an individual. Good prices are other there, if you search a little.

Ummm, but we're talking about a 3.6 here, not an SC/3.0 However, sounds like you got a good deal.

[mercury26]

Originally Posted by onboost

Ummm, but we're talking about a 3.6 here, not an SC/3.0 However, sounds like you got a good deal.

Yes, you are right. I was just trying to make a point about parts pricing. BUt on further inspection, the OP appears to have used P/Cs (based on one his later posts).

[onboost]

Originally Posted by mercury26

Yes, you are right. I was just trying to make a point about parts pricing. BUt on further inspection, the OP appears to have used P/Cs (based on one his later posts).

Yes, understood, but the point of reference from both the OP (further back in the thread) and you were in terminology.. as referenced.. NEW P/C's.

[RideSober]

I really don't know why you seem so hung up on a question asked 7 months ago regarding only if it was worth the additional cost of the 964 update when I already knew I would at least be having some engine out major service.

Here is a link to Lufteknic's website, Mahle late style 964 P/Cs for $2,650.00. I know I looked at their website then, and they still have these advertised now 7 months later.

911 964 piston & cylinder set (89-94): Lüfteknic - Parts and Accessories for Porsche Vehicles

Is your point that I might have made a big mistake 7 months ago?

I talked to many different people around that time trying to understand the level of effort and complexity including but not limited to: Henry at Supertec (and I ended up buying his head studs) Steve at Rennsport, Walt at Competition Engineering, and a guy at Lufteknic in Richmond. So it seemed to me 7 months ago that the general concensus was the 964 upgrade might cost around $3000 if needed.

How has that in any way lead to the problems Bruce has had completing the work he proposed, and for which he requested payment in advance of completion?

[onboost]

Ok, let me clear the air.. In my last post I was only addressing the point that mercury26 made regarding pricing for p/c's and the fact that "size matters."

Seriously, I'm not really hung up on any question you had, what you bought.. or whom your advice came from... my biggest point was I didn't feel/see the need to bad mouth Bruce in this forum considering his willingness to work with you in areas that I know others will not.. in addition to the fact that I know if something is not right, he will make it right.

Apparently based on an above post you and Bruce have got things smoothed over and worked out at the moment which I'm sure is good for all involved. So that's cool.

[mikedsilva]

old thread I know.. did this ever get resolved?

[mikedsilva]

guess not!

[911 Rod]

Wow.
I read through this while eating my lunch to see a 3.6 getting rebuilt.
Went for a s##t!

[mikedsilva]

There seems to be more here...
964 oil pressure after fresh rebuild

[john walker's workshop]

Not this again. Lets move on.