1992 964 Engine rebuild - progress...
 

Hi all, RE: 1992 Porsche 964 Engine Rebuild

Considering we are not looking for high horse power or spending a lot of money, What input would you offer for our project?

Background:
We are in the process of rebuilding a 1992 964 3.6L engine for my son's 1978 911 race car. The car has been running a 3.2L Aase built stock spec engine for about 5 years - it is still very strong and a class winner for 2 years. But, we need more torque and minor HP increase to still be competitive within the NASA PTA Class. Based on our weight HP is limited to 248 RWHP and torque lower than HP.

Findings:
We purchased a used 3.6L and have disassembled it to inspect and measure. The engine had a known leak down test indicating rings - but we also found valve issues(Edit( no problems with valves - just appearance)) in #5 & 6 and #5 rod bearing excess wear. Cylinders are out of tolerance spec also.

Approach:
After discussing the issues with our local Porsche Indi shop and Don at EBS(and researching the Forums) we have decided to:
1. send the cylinders to EBS for refinishing and increase to 102MM -- Done
2. send heads to local racing engine machine shop for reconditioning-guides,grind,etc. -- Done
3. send crankshaft and rods to machine shop for reconditioning and microfinishing -- Done
4. send cams to Webcams for regrind to 20/21 - and maybe rockers for recondition --Done
5. replace with JE 12.5CR 102MM piston set -- Done
6. replace with ARP rod bolts --Done
7. replace with EBS racing valve springs -- Done
8. replace head studs -- Done
9. replace rod, main and IS bearings -- Done
10. replace flywheel with Patrick 964/915 custom conversion ---DONE
11. replace front pulley with single belt -- Done
12. clean and flush case and valve carrier oil passages -- Done
13. reassemble by Porsche Indi shop -- 7/20/2012 Start date -- DONE
14. wiring conversion by Indi shop -- DONE
15. use existing 915 custom built and geared transmission - rebuilt last year -- DONE and changed 5th to 0.82 Stock
16. use existing custom 1.75" header system ---DONE
17. use 964 stock intake and DME ---DONE
18. when conversion to 3.6 is complete take car to Steve Wong for dyno custom chips --- NEXT

I will be posting this thread on several different places for feedback.

Thank you for your time to respond.

Sincerely,
Roy Turner
Phoenix, AZ

A picture of the UPS brown Porsche race car ---

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...UPSGoodPic.jpg

Your list looks pretty comprehensive, but I'd add a couple of things for your consideration. I had these things done for my 3.3L rebuild, so not sure about the 3.6L needing them, but if it does then you may wanna crossdrill crank for better oiling and add fire rings to heads and cylinders mating surfaces for better seal.

Uh, oh, now a torquey 3.8L in PTA here in AZ:eek:

Slippery slope. Trying to keep it under 248 rwhp might be a challenge. But ballast is relatively cheap if you go over...

Can't wait to see the finished product. Let me know if you need any hands on help in the build process. See you guys soon.

Erik

CaptainCalf,

Thank you for your reply!
I am considering the crankshaft oil passage cross drilling and will talk to the machine shop when they have the crank in their hands and have evaluated the 20 year old part.

I have heard the term "fire ring" but am not sure exactly what it is? Does it replace the standard cylinder/head ring?

Thanks again.
Regards,
Roy T

Erik,

Thanks for the boost! We have a couple of other things to reduce points for PTA also besides weight - front splitter changed and dial back the tires -- Brian will have more straight line speed and a bit less cornering speed.

I think we will ask DJ to put the engine back together so we don't have any DIY puck ups...and never ending oil leaks...

We hope to see you on the track at Firebird, still with the 3.2...

Take care,
Roy T

Hi Roy,

Here's a few pics of the fire-rings on my build;

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/6686616-post76.html

Essentially 2 machined channels into the mating faces of the cylinders and heads, which house/sandwich a ring. Used a lot on higher spec turbo engines, as you do get the heads lifting under boost. Porsche got around the problem by welding the cylinders to the heads on (iirc) the 956/962's :D

Thank you for the photos of the fire rings -- now I understand.
I see "Turbocraft" written on the cylinders - did they do this machine work for you?

Regards,
Roy

Does someone have an idea why #5 is worn and not others rod bearings??
 

We have the engine apart and are puzzled by the wear on #5 rod bearing.
Does anyone have experience with this unusual wear?

Thanks,
Roy T
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1337543943.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1337543995.jpg

Hi Roy,

No, I purchased them though Chris @ TK, but the machining work was done by the guys at LN, then shipped directly from them to me, to save the transit time....I guess that's why they have TurboKraft written on them, as the job was commissioned by/through them.

Re your #5 rod, have you checked the rod bore diameter and shell thickness? I.e., are they all original shells (with the Porsche triangular hallmark) and/or has any previous centre-centre correction been performed on your rods?

Cheers
S

Thank you,

I am pretty sure these are the original rods and bearings.
So far the consensus is the engine was run on low oil and over heated the #5 bearing.

We will have the rods reconditioned and the crankshaft checked before we reassemble the engine.

Cris at Turbo Kraft has a good reputation here in Tempe.

Regards,
Roy

Yup, am a very big "Chris fan", nothing but positive feedback from me, and has steered me in the right direction a number of times with my late-night (from the UK) phone calls after an evenings tinkering!

6-13-2012 Progress report

Cylinders back from EBS along with new JE 102MM 12.5:1 pistons , rings & light weight pins, ARP rod bolts, steel head studs, and EBS race valve springs

Cams sent to Webcams for 20-21 grind and cut off power steering piece (?)

Parts to local speed engine machine shop: recondition heads with new exhaust valve guides and 3 cut valve seats, recondition rods, check and polish crank; balance crank, rods and pistons.

Thanks to Don Jackson Enterprise in Phoenix for the Excellent technical assistance and future engine assembly.

Thanks to Don at EBS for your excellent service!

This is a slow process -- but we have plenty of time -- Granddaughter born this past Monday so driver will be out of the car for a bit...:)

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...0608-00017.jpg

Is there anything more beautiful than new pistons?! Besides the granddaughter of course :)

Looking good

Crankshaft Issue feedback??
 

7-05-2012 Progress Report

Heads, rods and crankshaft done and balanced.

However, there is a very, very small pothole on the #5 rod journal in the center near the oil hole - it is about half a pin head in size. This is the rod bearing that had the damage. The journals measure spec -- no wear.

We have about decided to not turn the crank and run as is. I don't have a picture - but it is so small I'm not sure you can see it anyway. As insurance we can send oil to the lab and keep an eye on the bearing wear.

This will be a race engine - but limited to 6200-6500RPM with most running between 3K and 6K.

Your feedback on this crankshaft issue is appreciated.

Regards,

No problem. Think of it as holding a reserve pocket of oil:)

Porshaah --

Thanks for your reassurance.
A similar comment was made also - which makes this dimple different than one
on a camshaft that will continue to degrade and loose metal around the edges.

And, from a very old and experienced Porsche engine builder -- "...seen a lot of these, no problem, put it back together and run it."

The machine shop did polish the bearing surfaces and they look like mirrors.
And, the measurements showed no wear.

Now its time to reassemble...

Regards,

Engine assembly...
 

The 1992 964 engine is being put back together - here are a few pics --garage porn!!

Crankshaft (magnafluxed and polished) rods (reconditioned - big end recut to round and size, new bushings) and ARP bolts added -- plus all balanced...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1342817040.jpg


Heads reconditioned, valve seats 3 angle grind, new valves, new EBS valve springs and TI retainers...


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1342817187.jpg

Case halves cleaned
(shop is Don Jackson Enterprise, Phoenix, AZ)
Porsche Independent Repair Specialists , VW, Audi Service


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1342817405.jpg

And...a broken head stud X2...why would only one stick and break?
Oh, well --- ready for the assembly of case halves, heads and cams...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1342817500.jpg

Oil pump was disassembled and examined - no issues -- heavy grease and assembled.

Next will be the cam timing process --- next week...

Porsche really designs and builds the most fantastic engines and cars!!!

Regards,

7-31-2012 Progress report --

Case halves together with new head studs and Patrick single pulley --
Had to replace one through bolt - wouldn't hold torque
Next -- pistons, cylinders, heads and cams
...sorry for the blurry pics...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1343773178.jpg

New chains and all new bearings - sprockets are OK, no wear

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1343773453.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1343773257.jpg

Regards,

Are the studs in the above post photo being used? Just curious, as the P/N on the bag indicates an older vintage 911?

Porshaah -- good eye!!

Yes, the bag does say 911... not 993 or 964...but they work and were sent by EBS
(Engine Builders Supply) in Reno, NV.
I think Porsche does some very interesting swaps with their parts -- the through bolts are 959 part numbers...

Maybe some more knowledgeable folks would have a good explanation for this Porsche parts numbering system??


Regards,

Hey Roy-

Seems we are at the same spot, just got my case back together Mon night. Was getting ready to install pistons/cyls yesterday found a cracked compression ring. Had to order a new one. Hope to have it by Thurs/Fri. Back at it this weekend in the garage.

Good luck with the rest of the build.

Erik

Progress Report 8-10-2012
 

Making progress slow but sure...

1-2-3 pistons, cylinders, heads and cam housing installed...

I now know why the JE pistons are disliked - pin clips are a bugger to get in place because the Stromski tool doesn't fit into the recess on the side of the piston like the Mahle...
(as told to me by Roland doing the work on this engine- I trust his hands better than mine) ---- Also a quirk in the order of piston cylinder install = because the pistons are 102MM (3.8L size) in a 964 3.6L case the order of install needs to be #3-#2 pistons and cylinders then rotate #1 to TDC and install piston and cylinder - the large size of the rings keep the piston from going into the case...if that makes sense...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1344631261.jpg

Close up of EBS valve springs and TI retainers

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1344631394.jpg

Well, moving along --- we don't want to drive this engine until September or later anyway -- 116 yesterday -- feels like Death Valley ;)

Regards,

I love this thread

Adding photo of 1992 964 3.6L at start of project
 

ShakinJoe -- Thanks!

I forgot to put up a photo of the 964 before we disassembled it -- on my back porch

We will be selling some 964 parts - like Power Steering pump, cruise control, full exhaust system, flywheel and clutch,
front pulley and damper - but I thought we would wait till its all done and the race car
driver is happy with the outcome -- "Got to BE!!"

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1344653530.jpg

We will be using a Patrick flywheel to adapt the 964 to our custom race built 915
transmission -- and we will use our current headers and clean up that plumbing mess
in this photo :D

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1344654068.jpg

Take care,
Regards,

9-6-2012 Progress Report 964 Rebuild/Upgrade
 

Here a few photos of the 1992 964 Porsche engine with Webcams 20/21cams,
sprockets and new chains and guides...and chain covers installed...cams are timed
and ready for dizzy, etc...

Roland at Don Jackson Enterprises in Phoenix does an excellent and very clean job of assembling
this engine for us. They just finished a 993 into '85 Carrera conversion.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346989276.jpg



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346989319.jpg



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346989359.jpg

The car is now in the shop and ready for the conversion to start soon.
The current 3.2L - SC engine tins will be modified to fit the 964.

If you see anything questionable, please write and let me know?

Regards,

Lookin' good Roy and Brian.

Was there no cooling tin between the cylinders on the 964 engine? I know it is a pain to install the 911 tin between the cylinders after you put the cam towers on without bending and re-bending where the tabs hold them on. BTDT. Maybe the 964 is easier in that regard.

Can't wait to see the car with new powerplant on the track. Hopefully its ready by INDE. Going to be a beast! I think its time for Rock Bottom again soon.

Erik

Thanks Erik,

The cooling tin is on the bottom side of the cylinders - no photo of that side.
We are looking forward to driving this on the track too -- hoping for INDE in Oct. but
may need to wait for Firebird late Oct. Rock Bottom sounds good to me...

Also, found cracked intake manifolds - #*&%#* plastic parts - another unexpected
expense...

Take care,

9-10-2012 Progress Report 964 Rebuild/Upgrade
 

More photos of the 964 3.8L build --
Dizzy, plug wires (new), fan/alternator. cooling shroud...
...Will remove 3.2L from car and use tin to build engine tin for 964...
Tarett aluminum valve covers will also be added...and rubber fuel lines replaced.
We used the Patrick front pulley and flywheel conversion also.

So....why is the fan that ugly color??? Because original and Racecar :)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1347315651.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1347315713.jpg

Again, I can't thank Roland and DJ at Don Jackson Enterprises enough for their
thorough and expert work on this project. And, thank them for their patience with
me hanging around their shop taking photos and asking questions.

Regards,

9-15-2012 Progress Report 964 Rebuild/Upgrade
 

Moving right along --

Existing 3.2L removed from car for engine tin modification to 3.6L

New Intake manifold pieces installed with fuel rails and Mr. Injector reconditioned
fuel injectors. The rubber fuel lines to the rails are being replaced with new high
pressure rubber because this can be a future failure that can be easily prevented now.

The engine tin modifications include making a space for the lower plug wires to
pass through the tin -- and filling and bending to match the 3.6L -- not too hard
to do - maybe 2 hours work.

And, new Tarett billet aluminum valve covers to replace the magnesium original covers.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1347721253.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1347721329.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1347721371.jpg

Next -- finish tin -- install intake and exhaust

We are discussing engine break in procedures and oil(non detergent non synthetic
-- maybe even Joe Gibbs special engine break in oil)-

What say You????

Regards,

Joe Gibbs break in oil for sure.

Thanks, we were leaning toward Joe Gibbs also.
Jacksons have used this in some hard to seat rings in 944 engines.

Another new photo - looking more complete - need to weld stiffeners on the rear
engine mount too - and an O2 bung into the headers

We (the shop and I) have decided to take out the existing oil breather catch can and
filter to hook up the breather as a closed loop as in factory set ups. The old system
made a mess of the engine compartment and need continual cleaning. We run the oil
level at 1/4 inch above the minimum mark on the dip stick at hot temps.

A 930 cover is ordered to close the big hole in the cooling shroud where the forced
air exhaust is located on the stock 964 cover. There will also be a small hose to blow air into the dizzy to cool the belt drive.

The wiring harness and throttle cable are yet to be installed too...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348017661.jpg

Regards,

9-24-2012 Progress Report 964 Rebuild/Upgrade
 

And...on to the wiring conversion...964 DME sitting in the back passenger side
Original 964 Engine harness along with the Patrick 964/911 conversion wiring.
Also, new coils and ignition -- fuel filter is moving up front along with new fuel lines in the tunnel.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348540998.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1348541044.jpg

Looks like the floor needs a little work too...my old back doesn't do floors too well ;)


Regards,

10-16-2012 Progress Report 964 Rebuild/Upgrade
 

...making some progress -
CV joints done,
exhaust mounted - from the 3.2L to the 964 (pic shows custom Laguna Seca muffler),
engine tin finished,
motor mount should be done today,
trans work underway (need Turbo syncro/dog teeth part from CA),

We decided to change the 0.96 5th gear to a 0.82 stock gear for more top speed
on long-straight race courses - our previous top speed was 125mph. We have a
custom built 915 trans - and one of the changes was to use Turbo syncro/dog teeth
because it holds together when the dog teeth wear out and things start coming apart
inside that grenade the box.

The 911SC rear engine mount needed a stiffening plate added for the 964 - will post pic next time.

Regards,
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1350414591.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1350414636.jpg

10-18-2012 Progress Report 964 Rebuild/Upgrade
 

...just a couple of photos of new 5th gear, custom work on dizzy air tube, and relocated fuel filter...

28/23 (0.82) stock ratio 5th gear

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1350598404.jpg

Air tube to cool belt -- no heater=race car

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1350598484.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1350598521.jpg

Relocated fuel filter (I think this is a VW part
because of the easy fittings in and out)


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1350598605.jpg

The welder decided he is going to produce heavy duty rear engine mounts --
so, I will have photos soon of the custom fabricated piece.

Regards,

10-19-2012 Progress Report 964 Rebuild/Upgrade
 

...And, in she goes ....start up planned for Tuesday

Note the custom made rear engine mount...now available for other 3.6 to SC conversions...from the welder-around-the-corner...


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1350710607.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1350710479.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1350710413.jpg

Note: NOT Mobile 1 anymore --- now Amsoil 15-50 Race Oil (after break in of course)

Regards,

The rebuilt 1992 964 (now 3.8L) is in the car --
Engine runs fine, sounds good, and is strong!

We ran the car on the track for break in using Joe Gibbs oil
on Saturday. The procedure was shift at 3K for several laps
then to 4K and 5K with acceleration - deceleration cycles.

On Sunday we changed the oil to Valvoline race oil 20-50. The
oil came out dark gray but no particles on the magnetic drain plugs.
Brian ran the engine to 6K for shifting and did a race practice,
race qualifying and the a 30 minute sprint race, still shifting at 6K.
(what patience he has -- being a back marker...)
NOTE: Oil temp was 210 for break in and during the race on Sunday - air temp 88

We had what we think is a DME issue on Sunday. We will get a OBD
tester on the DME tomorrow and see what shows up. We are running
the jumper DME set to "No O2 sensor ROW". The first issue was
random hesitation - then I removed the power to the DME and later
had low power and reduced throttle response.

Does the DME need constant power to keep from resting the memory??
I will be searching the forum for this answer...
Edit: Power keeps error codes and idle settings - was told...

There is a cold idle issue which we expected, but Brian adapted well
and it was not a problem either in the pits or on the track.


Ain't she a PRETTY!! The monster looking like like stock...

And, a video 13 seconds on track with muffler--
VID 20121028 00001 - YouTube

Regards,

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1351539157.jpg

Looking Good.

the '95 993's that use the 55pin Bosch DME have constant 12v power to them, i would suspect the 964 55pin to be the same

We had the Don Jackson crew put the Porsche tester on the car -- no error codes...

Then Roland did an adaption and the engine smoothed out and ran fine - very quick
accel/decel under no load conditions. This is because of the Patrick flywheel and
no heavy front damper.

Our next step is a Dyno Tune...

Regards,

11-23-2012 Progress Report 964 Rebuild/Upgrade
 

The Dyno Tune by Steve Wong went very well at Sergio Nardi's Game-Face facility in La Harbra, CA..

The results are 270 RWHP and 250+ RWT

Video link of one of 28 dyno runs

Porsche Dyno Tune 11-21-2012 by Steve Wong at Game-Face Sergio Nardi video by Arizona-ed | Photobucket

The DynoJet set up

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1353715774.jpg

Steve working on the DME

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1353715802.jpg


The DynoJet graphs of several runs -- Steve worked hard at smoothing the A/F ratio
-- this process took about 5 hours
---the blip on the graph at about 5700 is the 964 intake resonator opening
--- the rev limiter is set at 7200 - and Sergio ran it there every run - engine is strong...
(Thanks to The Don Jackson Enterprises shop in Phoenix and Roland the engine builder)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1353715914.jpg

Next step is back to the track for more racing and Brian learning to use more power.

Thanks for reading our engine rebuild story - as everyone says -- it takes a lot of patience.

Regards,

Roy, looking forward to seeing it full throttle at chuckwalla!
What was the ultimate difference from the first pull to the last? Wondering what the improvement was. Yea that blip looks familiar, I've always wondered if the opening could be adjusted or what the curve would look like if the flap was just held open.

Nice!