ground point info..........

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/638713-911-main-grounds.html

pulled the speedo last night, and it is now in transit to NH speedo for a restoration.

The needle needs to be recalibrated, and the odometer isn't working, so we're going to have a pro do this work.

On deck:

Tires installation

Then:
siene systems gate shift kit install
interior pieces parts (ie: carpet) install
address the running issue that seems to be going away from time to time (backfire when letting off the gas while in gear)

I am targeting delivery of this car to dad in the next 2 weeks.

I think I killed it....
 

Last night I started to install the shift gate kit - I figured that this was something that I could do that was "easy enough" while I waited for the speedo to be serviced at NH speedo....

SO: I got to step #7 in the shift-gate kit where it instructs you to do a test drive, where I said "gladly!", even though it was close to sun down, and I am still not quite 100% sure I can rely on the car.

I got about 1/4 mile from my house (post warm-up and quick clean up) - and I went to shift into 2nd gear and give it a little gas and it backfired, loudly (through the intake, I believe) and stalled. I went to (re) start it, and it turned over fine, and even acted like it was going to run, but it immediately died, every time. As the sun was starting to set, I cursed at myself many times as I didn't have my cell with me - or any tools. I attacked a couple of the obvious items:

Swapped the FP relay for a known good one
Inspected and disconnected/reconnected the FP fuses to make sure that there was a good connection there (in the frunk).
Made sure that all of the fuse connections in the engine compartment are OK.

Each time, I got the same result. Engine turns over, acts like it is going to start, and immediately dies.

What I suspect, and the direction that I am going to go first:
Fuel pump. Not positive, but I have a hunch that the fuel pump is dead.
Before I throw parts at this thing, we're going to test. I hear the CIS whine in the engine compartment with the key in the ON position, so I am going to raise the plunger in the air-box and see what happens. If it does what it is supposed to, I would hear the injectors delivering fuel to the cylinders (a noise that I am familiar with but is hard to describe in black and white).

I know there are FP's that I can use in substitute of the (very expensive) one that is there - hopefully I will find a small something that is easy to fix rather than the expense of a new FP.

Any other areas that I should consider looking?

Did you pop off the air cleaner and look to see if the pop-off valve was stuck open? You have to fix the backfire issue, going to blow your airbox apart or worse, even with pop-off valve...

Gary:

I just pulled the air cleaner, and did a quick inspection of the pop-off valve, and the giant O-ring was displaced out of the little recessed area, and was holding the pop-off valve open.

I am not sure if this is what stopped me last night, but I am not going to take any more chances. Next time I start it, I am rolling through the Fuel Pressure checks, with my pressure tester kit, and running it with my vacuum gages to determine what is causing my issue (backfire only at the time when I let off the gas in gear).

I am trying to get things done on this project one thing at a time - so tonight, I am going to finish the gate shift project and push it out in the drive way to start testing (if time permits).

The running issue - I believe - is related to the decel valve, so IF it starts, then I will attack that component first.

Not "engine rebuild" but progress
 

I was able to finish the seine gate shifter installation a couple nights ago, and decided that since I could not tackle the running issue *yet* (waiting for a fellow pelican's insight) I would tackle something that I figured I could knock out: finish removing the horrific tint job that I started to remove months ago.

While I was in there; I decided to make the rear 3rd (aftermarket) light work again as well.


So: here's how it looked.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1403844756.jpg

Side note: ...I remember when dad showed me the car ... years ago when he first got it, and I remember saying (to myself) "... eeewww. The tint is purple, and was done in 1987...."


So, when I picked up the car, I asked him if he liked the tint, and he said that I could remove it if I felt so inclined.

I did. And it was quite a mess, involving removing the rear speaker shelf, cleaning the glass with a steamer, white vinegar, and finally rubbing alcohol to get the adhesive off of the rear window to clean it up. Ok, so the outcome is not *perfect* and - yes, the speaker grilles are missing (thanks to the PO who never put them there to begin with), but it looks MUCH better now with out that funky purple; sun-trashed tint.

Enjoy!


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1403845133.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1403845187.jpg

I still have to fix the 3rd brake light to the glass, but ... you get the idea.

Progress, slow but steady
 

Happy 4th of July.

Today, I chipped away at putting the interior back together. I will let the pictures speak for the work done. This took WAY longer than I estimated.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1404533631.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1404533669.jpg

I didn't get the passenger carpet quite right, so I am going to pull it and do it again so that the floorboard doesn't show when you have the floor mat a tiny bit out of adjustment.


I then commissioned my young helper-buddy to record fuel pressure readings to see what could be my reason for an intermittent backfire issue when I let off the gas while in gear.

I am consulting with Tony to get his input on what could be the issue...

Fuel pressure test.........
 

Brian,

I got your email tonight regarding the control fuel pressure data from your car. My first reaction when I saw the table showing the cold control fuel pressure versus time was 'no way you could start the engine'!!!!! But as I read your email, you did drive the car for a while.

My conclusion to your data is that you have a bad gauge!!!!! There is no way your cold control fuel pressure be greater or equal to your system fuel pressure unless you have a severe flow restriction in the return line to the tank. Plus it is almost impossible to get a cold engine to start and idle at those cold control fuel readings.

You don't happen to have an HFpressure gauge kit? Please advise.

Tony

Yes, I am using the HF pressure testing kit.

during the winter, I exchanged it for another, as I thought that the old gage set was faulty, sighting a similar set of pressure readings from before.

FP gauge test
 

Ok:

I decided that I needed to confirm the pressure gauge; as I looked around quite a bit for an alternative pressure gauge set, only to find many different versions of the one that I already have ("YP" brand).

So, I decided that I would TEST the gauge that I have - at the office - using an air compressor set (at the compressor) near 30 psi. I have a regulator "down the line" a ways, and took a picture - this leads me to conclude that the gauge is OK.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1404845234.jpg

However. We're about 3psi off if we believe that the regulator gage is perfect (which I do not believe, because the needle is reading 4psi when there is no air over to this connection).

Now, I did not use the pressure relief while doing the FP test while ON THE CAR, (ooops, DUH!!) leading me to believe that I will be doing this test over again, as I did not record the correct pressures (while the car was running). So, I will do the test again this week.

to me, you have a gage issue...jmho... replace with a good quality unit...tools I NEVER skimp on...can always sell later if dont need them is my opinion...
if you buy low cost you will have to give it away when the day comes to sell...
with the internet & it now even on most folks phones, EVERY ONE checks around for what stuff costs...
If you buy quality, you will be able to get most of your $$ back from quality stuff when you sell it...
...AND...AND the most important thought is that all the time you owned the cheap tools, as it appears in this instance, will not be able to have accurate info which you need for setting up this or any engine for that matter...
its your $$ & I understand...jmho...

I would suggest the gauge is close enough.

From what I remember, the factory setting has a fairly forgiving range. When I set mine, I went for the top end of the range - wanted richer. Perhaps set your pressures in mid range and see what you get. Can always reset again if so desired.

The Guage set was purchased from HF. However, at $90, I am not ready to call it cheap, or even inaccurate. I went out to the shop to snap a picture of the pressure regulator I tested my FP gauge on - and there is -0- air at this point.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1404916969.jpg

Conclusion: while the gauge set I have is not the Bosch CIS test kit (if one exists), mine is accurate for me to use on this project.

Now, in general I do not purchase tools/equipment for my workshop from HF. I could not find a bosch kit, (or bosch "authorized" kit) - or I would have bought it. As I scour flea-bay to see if I can get one, the only kit I see is a version of the kit I already have.
My torque wrenches: from MATCO, nearly 100% of my sockets, box-end wrenches, screw drivers, and so-forth: Craftsman. Levels= Irwin (ok, one is empire, I just checked). Vice= Wilton. In other words, I have no problem buying high end tools, or equipment because if you keep them clean - they last for ever.

In this instance, I think that I performed the test incorrectly yielding the off results sited by Tony. I will test again (this time with the pressure relief valve there).

Lunch with a new friend...
 

I was able to hang out (over lunch) with a new friend who has a well sorted 80 SC.

His car is a fine example of what can be done with the right amount of time invested. A lot of period correct upgrades (ie: he re-covered the seats with German vinyl, the fuchs are clean as a whistle, the car looks beautiful tip to tail...)

I looked at a couple things to see if I was steering in the wrong direction: ie vacuum lines route, etc.

I had him start the car, and see that my idle is actually a little low by comparison, and while he does not have a backfire issue, has a good place that I can draw comparison to. The exhaust seems to have a similar smell -- I guess that I didn't take that into account as I have worked my way through my project thinking that I was running super rich all along...

Unfortunately, he does not have a set of gauges I could borrow to test/compare to mine.

SO: I am going to use my gauge set for the time being and run the tests, and next week, I will run the same tests with a different friend's gauge set to see if there is a different outcome. Hopefully that will steer me in the right direction.

you could always use what gage set up you have to get it running and then take it to a professional a/o his shop to confirm your settings... dont feel as if I am banging or your pride or what you have accomplished...you have done a great job resurecting this car...!! REALLY...!!...
Some things just need someone with more experience...and to set the engine up correctly in some areas needs such... after all the time & $$ you have spent on this car, to go and pay a professional a couple of hundred bucks and then you would know it was all set...
Another thing to keep in mind, these engines will run even if set up pretty screwed up... so I would do this but this is your project...

Tweeks:

I'm thinking that I'm in the same place: I am considering taking it to a pro to help get me over the hump - as I believe that I am missing something very simple. I will be giving this testing a try this weekend again, and also calling a pro to see what he suggests.

sounds like a wise plan there Roby5.. let us know how it goes & what you learn...

Wrong procedure.........
 

Brian,

I don't know about the accuracy of your HF gauges. At this point it is irrelevant to your tests. You were trying to measure your control fuel pressure versus time but you were measuring the system fuel pressure instead.

With the FP running and the shut-off valve (pressure gauge) closed, you get the system fuel pressure. With the valve open, you get the control fuel pressure. System fuel pressure (technically) should be steady at its setting (approx. 5 bar) and are not tested versus time. It is the control pressure that is checked and measured versus time because it is affected by temperature change.

Tony

Alright y'all: we have the expert mechanic's opinion now.

A PCA recommended shop took a look at the car this morning, and it is confirmed that we have an air leak in the #4 intake runner-to-block interface. It also is leaking air at the injector seal in the #4 and #5 runners. All other areas: confirmed to be good. I will be pulling the #4 runner and cleaning the mating surfaces, applying a new gasket, and I am considering to use some loctite black RTV to both surfaces.

In addition, I will be installing new injector seals at the #4/#5.

Sadly, I am a little disappointed that I still have an intake related air leak. However, this may be a very cheap fix in terms of part cost than the alternative.

I will report results.

...jmho...since it is conformed where u have air leaks, if i was u, i would replace ALL 6 cylinders intake runner top & bottom gasket/seals, the injector seals...basically, remove the cis box & replace all of the rubber & gaskets...unless u like going back in there numerious times in the future to try & find out why this and that...basically, if 1 cylinder is in that condition the other 5 are real close behind a/o the leak is soo bad that it is tough to tell if the other cyls are leaking also... all in all, you dont want to give this back to your father and he is saying well it is good till this or that...as denning said to the japanese back after ww2, STOP DEALING WITH THE SYMPTOMS...SOLVE THE PROBLEM...jmho...carry on & good luck...