The 2.7 arrives, build advice.

[cnwayland]

Originally Posted by Black 993

You don't need to shuffle pin a stock or mostly-stock 2.7 build. You don't need pressure-fed tensioners which have become crazy expensive -- just have Henry at Supertec install wider bushings on your idler arms and rebuild a pair of hydraulic tensioners. I also don't see any case damage from your pic on page 1.

Send the case to Ollie's for line boring, etc. Get your p/c's measured -- they might be just fine to reuse. 964 cams are a nice upgrade for CIS but if you go to carbs there are much better options.

I wouldn't spend money upgrading a 2.7, certainly not when you have a 3.0 to play with if you want more power.

The tensioner upgrade has become rather expensive in the last years. Black, you are literally the first person (other than a local air cooled VW/912 shop) who has not insisted shuffle pinning.

CIS cams were the at the top of this list until I pulled off the CIS and realized how clean the motor would be with carburetors. To be honest, I'd be very surprised if the CIS doesn't need a complete rebuild ~ it was hit hardest during the PO's storage over the last few decades.

We'll see more about the case when I get a better look at it. It's fairly covered in road grease and grime.

The 3.0 I suspect is in need of an overhaul too. It'll be replace with this motor and rebuilt at that time for the next project it goes into.

[afterburn 549]

If I remember correct, Bruce Anderson said shuffle pin it and I did.
People in high places have advocated doing this to Mag cases..Not AL cases.
I have no regrets doing mine, or the tensioners.
Peace of mind in the end.
Do it the way you want .
With the cam oil restrictors and oil mod this will be the 1st time in your life the oil tank level reading will be correct.
A nice benefit.

[Mick_D]

As I understand it, shuffle-pinning a 2.7 isn't necessary unless you are planning on trying for 250+ horsepower. Most of the performance books rate all their top 2.7s for the street at under that, I think.

[afterburn 549]

I have the bad habit "whilst there" ..might as well.

[cnwayland]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

With the cam oil restrictors and oil mod this will be the 1st time in your life the oil tank level reading will be correct.
A nice benefit.

I may go shuffling away just for the peace of mind.

Accurate reading of oil gauge is a convenience I am looking forward to.

[afterburn 549]

IF anyone poos poos the oil restrictors go back in time here.
They have been discussed at leanth.
Its is all good, not just my opinion but the top dawgs too.

[cnwayland]

Yesterday I had received my P202 & P203 ahead of schedule and so therefor rushed to the shop to get the cam nuts off. After 45 minutes of putting what was way too much torque through the motor using a 3' extension added to my breaker bar the left side was not going to budge and I was at risk of snapping the motor off the stand.

I went home.

This morning I returned and cut up some steel to hold the crankshaft:



Then I threw on the 1 13/16" socket, heated up the nut for a minute and blasted it off with the air impact.



The right side came apart with the specialty tools just fine after that. Moved on to removing the chain housings.



?: Do the housings utilize a location dowel (or pin) from the factory, or is that case work someone else modified?

Not that it's relevant... but here are the plugs I pulled.



After removing the cam housings... I found this on the 1st cylinder:



Things looked okay, albeit grimy, everywhere else.

[cnwayland]

I pulled off cylinder #6 before leaving. Here's what it looked like:



And at the case:

[afterburn 549]

I have not ever been fond of the crows foot either

[cnwayland]

Anyone..
Comments on chain housing locating dowels in case and cylinder 1 damage?

Got the rest of the cylinders and pistons out prior to travels. Time to start getting quotes for machining.

[cnwayland]

Got an answer to the housing dowel question from a knowledgable machinist; locating dowels are factory on the chain covers. The current plan is that some time next week I'll have everything prepared for the journey to the machine shop. I figured I'd save myself a couple hundred dollars and remove the exhaust and head studs myself. Snap-On doesn't have stock on the necessary collets with the remover tool, so I picked up a full used set on eBay.



It's nice that the older Snap-On stuff came in metal boxes. I guess everything is plastic these days..

[manbridge 74]

I like their ratchets and specialty tools but the rest of the current Strap-On stuff is not equal to what they once offered.

[cnwayland]

With the head studs removed and all of the case bolts & nuts off, it's time to head to the machine shop tomorrow to have an in-depth discussion regarding case and head work, p&c's, and 964 cam grinds.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Black 993

You don't need to shuffle pin a stock or mostly-stock 2.7 build. You don't need pressure-fed tensioners which have become crazy expensive -- just have Henry at Supertec install wider bushings on your idler arms and rebuild a pair of hydraulic tensioners.

How much does rebuilding tensioners and updating idler arms cost these days ?

[RSTarga]

I vote yes on shuffle pinning any mag case bigger than 2.4, and I think the expense of the pressure fed tensioners is not worth it. Use 930 tensioners with proper spacers and new ramps, use 60W oil in the tensioners and pre-bleed.
Every bit as reliable as the pressure fed. I've been running them for 20 years on my 2.7.
Upgrade the oil pump, do the pressure bypass upgrade but not the cam line restrictors.
Do you want to increase the power or just go back to stock?

[Daniel Cooper]

Boy that brings back memories. I have a 2.7 in my 69 T. 206.5 hp at 6250 on the JWE dyno. Super fun car. But I took the motor down to the crank 4 times to get it to stop leaking. My thoughts:

1) spend money on the cases. Have every stud time certed. Align bore it, shuffle pin it. Have the through bolt holes countersunk. I had Ollies do it. Taking it back apart for a pulled stud (say the oil cooler stud ) sucks. I went to 2.9 Andial P/Cs so they bored the cases to fit them too.

2) Use through bolts from the 3.0. The threads are finer and they torque up better. Use viton o-rings. Put silicon paste on the o-rings, and hold the washer with a vice grip and the bolt head with a wrench as you torque the through bolt nut so the washer and bolt don't spin. If they spin the o-ring(s) will twist into the case--especially as the mag cases work and the through bolt holes ovalize if not shuffle pinned. Pushing the o-ring in will result in a big leak. I pulled the through bolts out one by one and carefully installed the o-rings after I had torqued everything down once to get the case sealer properly set.

3) Use ARP or Henry's barrel studs. You'll be glad you did.

Have fun !!

[cnwayland]

Originally Posted by Daniel Cooper

1) spend money on the cases. Have every stud time certed. Align bore it, shuffle pin it. Have the through bolt holes countersunk.

I definitely have done. Here's a list of what's happening at the shop:

Timesert case, machining cylinder mounting surface, spot face through bolts, align bore, center two mains dowel pin, valve & valve guides, surface heads & exhaust flange, wrist pin bush, oil by-pass for late-style pump.

Originally Posted by Daniel Cooper

Use through bolts from the 3.0. The threads are finer and they torque up better. Use viton o-rings. Put silicon paste on the o-rings, and hold the washer with a vice grip and the bolt head with a wrench as you torque the through bolt nut so the washer and bolt don't spin. If they spin the o-ring(s) will twist into the case--especially as the mag cases work and the through bolt holes ovalize if not shuffle pinned. Pushing the o-ring in will result in a big leak. I pulled the through bolts out one by one and carefully installed the o-rings after I had torqued everything down once to get the case sealer properly set.

This is really useful information. I hadn't heard of utilizing the 3.0 through bolts.

ARP barrel studs is on this list already

[cnwayland]

Originally Posted by RSTarga

Use 930 tensioners with proper spacers and new ramps, use 60W oil in the tensioners and pre-bleed.
Every bit as reliable as the pressure fed. I've been running them for 20 years on my 2.7.

This is truly good to hear. I'm likely to save the cash and not splurge on all new timing covers.

Originally Posted by RSTarga

Do you want to increase the power or just go back to stock?

I think the 964 cam grind and rebuilding the CIS is about all that's going to happen on this particular engine. I don't want to get too carried away from the stock motor so I can get a feeling for what the car was like from the factory.

[afterburn 549]

I can say a few things with experience
The SC cams gave my 2.7 165lb TQ and 165 HP @ the rear wheels .
The difference beteen the stock engine and rebuilt was night and day!
There was more left as I had not yet hooked up the double plugs and it was running REALLY fat.
Now for the argument, I did eyebrow the jugs and boat tail the mains and did my own version of Port and polish .
If I had bumped the CR one point that would have made an another big difference but it was left stock.
So thats my advice, OR go wit the 964 Cams as they are even better !
If you can, bump it one point.
Pay atn to your squish margin

[Sunman]

I'm interested in knowing more about this build as i'd like to do the same on my 1974.