Efi options
 

I have looked at many options over the years and have used a couple. Recently I picked up a 2.4 for my 914-6 conversion and was looking at options. Currently I have webers for it but was looking at the FAST system on cis runners and a custom made airbox like when they used to do Holley conversions way back when.. I could possibly just make my completely scratch built intake system.. Any thoughts?? The FAST System is only about 2200 for the entire deluxe setup with great reviews. What does everyone think?

That may help: Electronic Fuel Injection Leader - FAST® - Fuel Air Spark Technology Fuelairspark.com

Right I have looked at it and a couple of friends that have it on their American muscle cars and they really like it.. Looks like it is just an intake away for our applications.

Let me know what you find out/come up with. I like watching shows that specialize in American V8s and am amazed at what their bolt-on, learning EFI systems cost.

I have a CIS engine, with a set of good carbs to put on, but would really like EFI but I can't really swing $4-5k for a setup.

Fi tech is an off shoot from FAST and is half priced.. I would think with a fabricated intake you could be fuel injected for 2kish

IME, it's not so much the cost of the hardware or ECU, or even a decent loom (which is $$'s).

More importantly, the mapping effort to get a REALLY nice, driveable engine is a tonne of money. Mapping for the top end is easy. Self learning has removed many hours from what was once a very time consuming exercise, and can get you there-or-therabouts very quickly indeed. From that you can tweak and refine.

But, making a car thats well behaved, pulls away without stalling, cold starts each and every time, behaves itself on light throttle in traffic, etc, etc, is not the work of a tea break.

Anecdotally, I heard that Porsche invested 40,000 man hours mapping the 996TT, and Bosch/Audi had one guy, for 6mths, with 6 cars available to him, doing nothing but cold start mapping on one of their RS models (iirc)

ETA - to put some context around the mapping costs, I had to reluctantly go and scare myself the other week, by sitting down and adding up the total spend for my engine project...which has turned out to be FAR from just an engine project...lots of refurbing, new brakes, wheels, suspension, etc....with all that considered, my mapping costs *so far* (we're not done yet) are about 12.5% of this project, quite easily going to reach 15% I would guesstimate.

Heard this all before, glad I stick my fingers in my ears and sing LA-LA-LA-LA!

I can program an SDS system in about an hour, maybe a weekend for MS. At least good enough to drive. ;)

As far as the other stuff goes well...yeh....what do you expect?
You have to have the skills or the coin to pay for it, goes with the territory.

Yeah, if you take the time to learn tuning and arent afraid to experiment, the costs aren't bad.

Just in the off chance you haven't looked at it.. my guess is the "tbitz" setup would be more than adequate and also a lot cheaper than trying to do one of those muscle car setups. If you have access to some CIS runners, just use his adapters and stick some efi injectors in where the CIS injectors used to reside. Shouldn't be a problem to tig up a little airbox and stick a throttle body on it! Voila, port injected EFI. OR.. you can peer over the edge of the slippery slope as has been alluded to.

TBitz makes a very nice kit.

I did the tbitz kit on my 3.2ss turbo years ago.. I didn't like how much of the programming was on me.. I just like the learning function of the new muscle car setups.. Its all about what you are after.. I am building a driver car not a race car but the learning function again makes the process easy.. Or at least that's what others tell me.. Plug and play and very cost effective

Yup that was my point....in my case, a) I have no desire to learn how to do mapping - I would do it so infrequently that whatever I do learn (in terms of the specific SW, not the basic principles) is likely to be forgotten again very soon after. Not a good use of my time, nor diminsihing braincells. I'd rather invest that time doing what I know I'm good at as a day job, and using the "plastic tool" to get the job done.

And yup, thoroughly afraid to experiment. As I'm finding out now, it's hard enough to put together an engine 100% successfully, first time around, and certainly eyewateringly expensive. The last thing I need is for me to go and **** it up by being a have-a-go-hero. Some things are just better left to the pro's unless you're willing to temper your learning curve with broken hardware. Maybe. Maybe not.

What I'm finding is so called pros, aren't really pros. Jbrown was a victim lately too. Definitely wasn't an easy road, but glad I did. Mapping is the easy part (most EFI brands have self tuning software anyways), a lot of other things that make a car drive nice have to be understood and figured out. It is nice to drop your ride off and get a completely tuned ride, no doubt!

No doubt, there's a **** tonne of sheisters out there as I've also found out on my venture.

In regards to low end mapping, a pal of mine is the UK distributor for MBE systems (who actually work on a lot of stuff for manufacturers and government organisations, in additon to their motorsport activities). The way we're doing the low-speed drivability mapping is either for him to sit in the passenger seat, me driving, so I can get it driving how I want. Then a few weeks ago, we did some remote mapping for 3.5hrs in the evening, using remote desktop s/w and either my wifi network or 4G mobile whilst I'm driving. Was very successful, and saved a 250 mile round trip!

No doubt something we'll be doing again as we zero-in on refining the maps.

Couple things about EFI

-ITB's are harder to tune than a single TB system.
-Same goes for cams, a milder FI grind is easier than a hot carb cam

Both of the above is to do with getting a decent vac signal for the MPS (Manifold Pressure Sensor).
Hot cam and ITB you likely will have to run a TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) programed fuel map

If you are mechanically inclined, but scared of programming, I get an SDS system, a good warm FI grind and a 3.2 intake.
sdsefi(dot)com

Which 2.4 do you have? The intake options would vary based on the base engine. MFI ports? What about 73.5 CIS port heads? 72 or 73? T/V? or T/E?

All of the EFI systems will require programming and setup. They all have the same setup functions and require mapping of spark and fuel trim tables. If you are not going to tune yourself then The best setup is one that your local tuner is most familiar with.

I have mfi heads.. I have considered ms again but I am probably a year away from a running car.. As I said I have webers to use and probably will to begin with.. But I am now getting to the stage where I just don't want to smell like gas..

If you have experience with MS then that's what I'd likely stick with.

The SDS is likely the simplest system to tune as long as you stick to the parameters I mentioned in post #15.
I can easily tune an SDS system as I drive on country roads within an hour.
That said some SDS users have had issues with altitude changes (mountains).

ive looked around also some time ago and found speedmaster..supposed be a self learning system i believe. would look pretty good too. see link

https://speedmaster79.com/pce1481074-chevy-sbc-350-manifold-30404-fast-ez-efi-20-self-tuning-fuel-injection-system/

I have FAST efi on my cobra replica. Its the EZ system that self tunes and learns. It does not like work well with any cam that will have alot of valve overlap and a 8 stack IR intake. I have a very lumpy cam that is on the border of valve overlap for the system but should still work fine. It doesnt. Runs richer then it should. No way to modulate anything. The low vacuum signal doesnt allow the MAP sensor to tune mid or rolling throttle very well. idle and WOT it runs great. I learned that the hard way. If you get a system upgrade to the XFI system from Fast. It wil allow you to take it to a tuner or tune it yourself. The EZ system does not allow you to do this. The extra few bucks spent will def pay off in the long run when you change parts or want to build that engine either milder or even a wild.

IF your going to run a IR system you will need the capabilities of the XFI. If you are using a MAF style efi intake the EZ Fast system should work better for that.

I know what an ITB is, but what's an IR?

Interesting.. So maybe a 3.2 intake and tbitz kit really is the way to go? Hmm

tbitz is just one option, I believe it's just a 911 sorted Megasquirt (MS) system that come with a base (fuel values) map And most of the bits needed in a well thought out package.

These items can be bought separately (or fabricated) for any efi system you choose to use, just depends on your skill level. A EFI system is just the brain and harness you still have to add the injectors, some of the sensors, fuel pump, regulators, lines, intake, etc. All systems need a certain amount of fab work, mostly welding bungs and adapting sensor mounts. Many suppliers also can put together a kit like tbitz, at the same time many don't. Some that don't offer kits have dealers who do install systems into specific cars.

Most other systems also have map examples, so in other words a base fuel value map.
SDS comes with a base map, they ask you about your app when you order, but also has a 3.2 and a 930 map examples on their website.
MS has many map examples on the MS forums.
A base map is just a rough fuel values program (think carb jetting) to get your tune in the ballpark.

Prices for systems range as cheap as $500 for south africa's Gotech MFI to well over tens of thousands for a pro tuned and installed MOTEC.

All systems will also require a wide band O2 meter, but that is a good idea even for tuning carbs.

"I know what an ITB is, but what's an IR? "

IR = intake runner or individual runner

As long as we're in the dictionary mode, what's an "SDS?"

Simple Digital Systems, an EMS manufacturer.

Some I mentioned.

http://sdsefi.com/
Gotech MFI X

Megasquirt started as a DIY kit
MegaSquirt | Premier DIY EFI Controller

You can buy Megasquirt as a DIY kit right up to pro built units
Suppliers - Megasquirt EFI

This guy has experiance doing complete MS system for the VW crowd he may have a 911 engine under his belt
The Dub Shop

There is also a very long list of other EFI manufactures TEC, Haltec, Weber, Autotronic, Motec just to name a few.

And may parts suppliers, PMO, Jenvey, goingsuperfast....again it's a big list.

Competition Engineering makes a complete 911 system I believe based on the TEC system.

EMS = Engine Management Systems

Most systems do much more than just FI, they also can do ignition, boost control, fans, pumps, variable timing, data logging, etc., so they truly are EMS systems.
You can build a system to just do FI or very complex.

Lots of jargon to learn ;)

Vems is one of the best value ecus even price wise compared to megasquirt. The wideband controller on board makes the difference.

http://vems.us

What systems have the best auto tune functions? I hear Haltech and Electromotive had good software for this. It seems like 90% of the battle with EFI is just getting the thing to run right so it can be fine-tuned.

That's a concern of mine too. I will be installing on a never before run engine so I don't need issues in making it run/get an initial tine during that phase.

I don't want to seem like I'm harping on SDS, but I do have that system in my '67 bug and have tuned several other systems, so this is first hand knowledge.

The SDS will run right from first start and for break-in it has a simple rich/lean mixture knob like on an airplane. So using your wideband you simply turn the knob to a safe AFR like 12.5:1 during your break-in. Then you can use it to tune your system with the pendant as you drive.
I use an old ashtray as a mount and can program (tweak) the system, alone as I drive, in about an hour.

BTW many tech savvy dudes didn't like the old SDS because of it's simple pendant programming system that you couldn't hook a laptop into.
Pretty sure you can tune with both the pendant or laptop now with the new versions.

This is my first temporary SDS pendant ashtray mount from back in 2003. Knob on the right is the rich/lean mix knob.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads...1065029214.jpg

There are a ton of options out there, that's for sure. Many are very good, and they keep increasing the features to make cars more driveable. The biggest key is to find and use the one you are most comfortable with.

Holley, FAST, and AEM are top notch.

I went with Pantera EFI (Also branded by Weber Redline, and 034 Motorsports) for our 356 build. I chose this system because at the time, and maybe still today, they were the only ones that let me run full sequential injection without a cam sensor. The Pantera EFI uses a faster processor, which allows the crank sensor to be used to determine which stroke the engine is on. The tuning software, and documentation are more difficult to understand than with the Holley or FAST, but beyond those hurdles, it lets you do a ton of stuff. It will work with MAF or MAP, has comprehensive blending between alpha-N and speed/density tuning, and plays well with wide-band oxygen sensors.

3.2 intake is a great way to go, IF you can find one for a good price. 930 and EFI conversion guys buy them up, as well as 3.2 guys keeping them for their rebuilds. If anyone has a line on one for cheap send mb911 and me the info (maybe we can both do a DIY thread on a 2.4 and 2.7 conversion).

Has anyone ever used a 3.6 intake? I ask because I have a few of those laying around. What is the advantage of the 3.2?

I had planned on using the SC intake or ITB's, but am open to other options.

Do you have plastic or aluminum 3.6 intakes lying around??

All are plastic, unfortunately. The aluminum version us quite rare, having been used only the first year of the 3.6, and maybe not all of that. We have three, only two (and maybe one) are available.

The 3.6 intakes have better flow uniformity compared to the 3.2 intakes. Additionally there is a resonance chamber controlled by a flapper valve to change the VE characteristics as a function of rpm.

I would be interested in a plastic version if you are selling. I think Cory (Tippy) and I have the same idea here.

I will need to consult with my partner on selling and a projected price.

What controls the flapper valve? (Since we were removing them for our manifold we never really paid much attention.). I'm guessing a combination of manifold pressure and electronics.). Since the electronics will be absent in my proposed use my thoughts were not to worry about that feature.

My main concern was port size. This would go on a 3.0 SC with the early boing port heads, which I believe (off the top of my head) are 38mm. How would that match up with that intake? (All this I would have discovered, but since we're talking about it . . .)