Efi options

mb911 · mb911's Garage

I have looked at many options over the years and have used a couple. Recently I picked up a 2.4 for my 914-6 conversion and was looking at options. Currently I have webers for it but was looking at the FAST system on cis runners and a custom made airbox like when they used to do Holley conversions way back when.. I could possibly just make my completely scratch built intake system.. Any thoughts?? The FAST System is only about 2200 for the entire deluxe setup with great reviews. What does everyone think?

JJ 911SC · JJ 911SC's Garage

That may help: Electronic Fuel Injection Leader - FAST® - Fuel Air Spark Technology Fuelairspark.com

mb911 · mb911's Garage

Right I have looked at it and a couple of friends that have it on their American muscle cars and they really like it.. Looks like it is just an intake away for our applications.

JmuRiz · JmuRiz's Garage

Let me know what you find out/come up with. I like watching shows that specialize in American V8s and am amazed at what their bolt-on, learning EFI systems cost.

I have a CIS engine, with a set of good carbs to put on, but would really like EFI but I can't really swing $4-5k for a setup.

mb911 · mb911's Garage

Fi tech is an off shoot from FAST and is half priced.. I would think with a fabricated intake you could be fuel injected for 2kish

Spenny_b · Spenny_b's Garage

IME, it's not so much the cost of the hardware or ECU, or even a decent loom (which is $$'s).

More importantly, the mapping effort to get a REALLY nice, driveable engine is a tonne of money. Mapping for the top end is easy. Self learning has removed many hours from what was once a very time consuming exercise, and can get you there-or-therabouts very quickly indeed. From that you can tweak and refine.

But, making a car thats well behaved, pulls away without stalling, cold starts each and every time, behaves itself on light throttle in traffic, etc, etc, is not the work of a tea break.

Anecdotally, I heard that Porsche invested 40,000 man hours mapping the 996TT, and Bosch/Audi had one guy, for 6mths, with 6 cars available to him, doing nothing but cold start mapping on one of their RS models (iirc)

ETA - to put some context around the mapping costs, I had to reluctantly go and scare myself the other week, by sitting down and adding up the total spend for my engine project...which has turned out to be FAR from just an engine project...lots of refurbing, new brakes, wheels, suspension, etc....with all that considered, my mapping costs *so far* (we're not done yet) are about 12.5% of this project, quite easily going to reach 15% I would guesstimate.

Mark Henry · 04-25-2016, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spenny_b

ETA - to put some context around the mapping costs, I had to reluctantly go and scare myself the other week, by sitting down and adding up the total spend for my engine project...which has turned out to be FAR from just an engine project...lots of refurbing, new brakes, wheels, suspension, etc....with all that considered, my mapping costs *so far* (we're not done yet) are about 12.5% of this project, quite easily going to reach 15% I would guesstimate.

Heard this all before, glad I stick my fingers in my ears and sing LA-LA-LA-LA!

I can program an SDS system in about an hour, maybe a weekend for MS. At least good enough to drive.

As far as the other stuff goes well...yeh....what do you expect?
You have to have the skills or the coin to pay for it, goes with the territory.

Tippy · 04-25-2016, 11:51 AM

Yeah, if you take the time to learn tuning and arent afraid to experiment, the costs aren't bad.

IXjamesXI · 04-25-2016, 11:54 AM

Just in the off chance you haven't looked at it.. my guess is the "tbitz" setup would be more than adequate and also a lot cheaper than trying to do one of those muscle car setups. If you have access to some CIS runners, just use his adapters and stick some efi injectors in where the CIS injectors used to reside. Shouldn't be a problem to tig up a little airbox and stick a throttle body on it! Voila, port injected EFI. OR.. you can peer over the edge of the slippery slope as has been alluded to.

Tippy · 04-25-2016, 02:18 PM

TBitz makes a very nice kit.

mb911 · mb911's Garage

I did the tbitz kit on my 3.2ss turbo years ago.. I didn't like how much of the programming was on me.. I just like the learning function of the new muscle car setups.. Its all about what you are after.. I am building a driver car not a race car but the learning function again makes the process easy.. Or at least that's what others tell me.. Plug and play and very cost effective

Spenny_b · Spenny_b's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tippy

Yeah, if you take the time to learn tuning.....

Yup that was my point....in my case, a) I have no desire to learn how to do mapping - I would do it so infrequently that whatever I do learn (in terms of the specific SW, not the basic principles) is likely to be forgotten again very soon after. Not a good use of my time, nor diminsihing braincells. I'd rather invest that time doing what I know I'm good at as a day job, and using the "plastic tool" to get the job done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tippy

...and arent afraid to experiment, the costs aren't bad.

And yup, thoroughly afraid to experiment. As I'm finding out now, it's hard enough to put together an engine 100% successfully, first time around, and certainly eyewateringly expensive. The last thing I need is for me to go and **** it up by being a have-a-go-hero. Some things are just better left to the pro's unless you're willing to temper your learning curve with broken hardware. Maybe. Maybe not.

Tippy · 04-25-2016, 04:38 PM

What I'm finding is so called pros, aren't really pros. Jbrown was a victim lately too. Definitely wasn't an easy road, but glad I did. Mapping is the easy part (most EFI brands have self tuning software anyways), a lot of other things that make a car drive nice have to be understood and figured out. It is nice to drop your ride off and get a completely tuned ride, no doubt!

Spenny_b · Spenny_b's Garage

No doubt, there's a **** tonne of sheisters out there as I've also found out on my venture.

In regards to low end mapping, a pal of mine is the UK distributor for MBE systems (who actually work on a lot of stuff for manufacturers and government organisations, in additon to their motorsport activities). The way we're doing the low-speed drivability mapping is either for him to sit in the passenger seat, me driving, so I can get it driving how I want. Then a few weeks ago, we did some remote mapping for 3.5hrs in the evening, using remote desktop s/w and either my wifi network or 4G mobile whilst I'm driving. Was very successful, and saved a 250 mile round trip!

No doubt something we'll be doing again as we zero-in on refining the maps.

Mark Henry · 04-26-2016, 05:06 PM

Couple things about EFI

-ITB's are harder to tune than a single TB system.
-Same goes for cams, a milder FI grind is easier than a hot carb cam

Both of the above is to do with getting a decent vac signal for the MPS (Manifold Pressure Sensor).
Hot cam and ITB you likely will have to run a TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) programed fuel map

If you are mechanically inclined, but scared of programming, I get an SDS system, a good warm FI grind and a 3.2 intake.
sdsefi(dot)com

jpnovak · 04-26-2016, 06:47 PM

Which 2.4 do you have? The intake options would vary based on the base engine. MFI ports? What about 73.5 CIS port heads? 72 or 73? T/V? or T/E?

All of the EFI systems will require programming and setup. They all have the same setup functions and require mapping of spark and fuel trim tables. If you are not going to tune yourself then The best setup is one that your local tuner is most familiar with.

mb911 · mb911's Garage

I have mfi heads.. I have considered ms again but I am probably a year away from a running car.. As I said I have webers to use and probably will to begin with.. But I am now getting to the stage where I just don't want to smell like gas..

Mark Henry · 04-29-2016, 04:43 AM

If you have experience with MS then that's what I'd likely stick with.

The SDS is likely the simplest system to tune as long as you stick to the parameters I mentioned in post #15.
I can easily tune an SDS system as I drive on country roads within an hour.
That said some SDS users have had issues with altitude changes (mountains).

aircooledfool · 04-29-2016, 06:38 PM

ive looked around also some time ago and found speedmaster..supposed be a self learning system i believe. would look pretty good too. see link

https://speedmaster79.com/pce1481074-chevy-sbc-350-manifold-30404-fast-ez-efi-20-self-tuning-fuel-injection-system/

tocobill · 04-29-2016, 07:21 PM

I have FAST efi on my cobra replica. Its the EZ system that self tunes and learns. It does not like work well with any cam that will have alot of valve overlap and a 8 stack IR intake. I have a very lumpy cam that is on the border of valve overlap for the system but should still work fine. It doesnt. Runs richer then it should. No way to modulate anything. The low vacuum signal doesnt allow the MAP sensor to tune mid or rolling throttle very well. idle and WOT it runs great. I learned that the hard way. If you get a system upgrade to the XFI system from Fast. It wil allow you to take it to a tuner or tune it yourself. The EZ system does not allow you to do this. The extra few bucks spent will def pay off in the long run when you change parts or want to build that engine either milder or even a wild.