Porsch 911 964 Engine decision

[Posch]

Hello to everyone,

I bought my first and probably only Porsche 911 964. It is a 1993 model with only
52K miles on it, body has no rust and the engine fires up and runs and sounds as it should.
Now to the issue with the engine. It leaks quite a bit of oil after the engine warms up and it definitely has to be addressed. I got a quote for $ 15,000.00 to have it resealed and replace everything else that may needs to be replaced.
Or I had in mind to build a 3.8L engine which was quoted around 20K.
My question is, why not just reseal the engine, with this low miles it may not need any parts at all?
This is the only mechanic I have talked to right now. What can I expect as far as pricing go?
And one last question: It is a regular 964, the VIN# comes up as a "RS Trim" and it does not have the typical rear Window wiper arm. Does anyone have any input on that?
Thanks.

[smokintr6]

Bottom line is you will never know until you get in there....If the guy quoted you $5k and found 10k of bad parts, you'd probably be pretty upset. Where are you located? You need to find a trustworthy shop willing to quote you on just resealing. You may not find anyone. If you were doing it yourself you would certainly look to reuse as many parts as practical.

[Posch]

I am in the Maryland area. So far I have only spoken to one Mechanic where the car is at the moment. I just wanted another opinion, but a car is not an Item you can just pass along from one shop to another. This mechanic did not think it was a great idea to just reseal.

[Flat6pac]

Well of course he didn't think a reseal is all that's needed, reseal will be all the way to center case seal, especially the through bolts.
Need to send the heads out for a valve job
Need to replace 24 delivar studs before they break.
Replace intermediate shaft bearings and see what kind of life the mains have had.
Lots of hours cleaning, but I would expect to have a pricing account itemized for labor and parts.
Bruce

[nickyclyde]

I may be naive, but is it not possible that this is a good running engine with 1 or 2 bad oil leaks? Is it not safe to assume the case seal MAY be ok?

[smokintr6]

Originally Posted by nickyclyde

I may be naive, but is it not possible that this is a good running engine with 1 or 2 bad oil leaks? Is it not safe to assume the case seal MAY be ok?

Sure... but not ok if you are a shop with your reputation on the line.

6pac, you're assuming a lot... again a shop has to have your attitude. Someone doing their own work not nearly as much.

50 k miles might be time for a valve job, but if it's not burning oil...........

Start with finding the leaks, then decide from there how much effort is needed.

[Posch]

I understand that this is not much of Information I could give to you all. I just wanted to get a vague idea and second opinion of where to start. How accurate can a mechanic be with a guess where the leaks may be? They should have a pretty good idea of what's wrong with it after they have looked at it?

[Dpmulvan]

It would help if you told us where the leaks are coming from, it may not be as bad as you think.

[mikedsilva]

Welcome to 964 ownership!
I just rebuilt my entire motor... all because of a few oil leaks. My car is a 1990 and did NOT have the head gasket upgrade which I am sure your later model 93 model should have. So in theory, yours "shouldn't" be leaking from the heads.

My car has travelled 90,000 kms or approx 64000miles. It had a few oil leaks from normal places such as oil pressure switch and breather cover. Also my power steering pump was leaking. The other leaks were coming from timing chain boxes, and also from what I suspected were the through bolts.

This was my first engine build and I did a LOT of reading to understand where they could be coming from and how to go about it. I wasn't planning on splitting the case, but when I did my disassembly, I found that one of my camshafts was pitted, likely from previous owners not using a high zinc content oil. So I had to have my camshafts ground and also the rockers... some of my rocker shafts were out of spec so I had to buy some new ones.

My heads were in great condition, but the local machine shop said I needed new valve guides.. they cleaned and reseated my valves with new seals etc..
My cylinders and pistons were in great condition but I used new rings upon assembly.

The decision to split the case is a big one. Unless the case parting line is leaking, then you probably could hope everything is ok and leave it be.. the condition of the rest of the motor will tell you if it needs to be split. However, having gone this far, I figured "why not!" and split my case. Also, the pitting on the camshafts suggested I should have a good look..
I was glad I did because I was reassured at just how clean everything was inside. It had never been apart before and there was not 1 spec of crud.. just nice clean oil.

My main bearings were in good condition, however I chose to replace them all... this was not cheap as I sourced genuine Porsche bearings which are about 3 times the price as the Glyco ones from our host.. again, do some research to see why they are better.
The intermediate shaft bearings were very worn as is common on these motors. This was perhaps the only thing that really warranted splitting the case.
Also, you should pull the rods from the crank, to check the big end bearings... Mine had some minor wear so again I replaced the lot with genuine Porsche. Also, you have to replace all the con rod bolts as they are once use only.
The through bolt o-rings can start to leak over time.. a couple of mine were leaking. When I removed all mine, 2 of them were a little chewed up from when they were installed which explained why they had started to leak!


It all adds up.
While mine was apart, I replaced the clutch, clutch slave cyl and hose too.
It was a good opportunity to also powdercoat all my engine tins .. reco the alternator, fan and housing too..
I spent another grand on new plug leads (!).. rebuilt my distributor.. new o2 sensor...
So in the end, I think I spent about $12k but I now have a bone dry motor which is as good as new with all new components. It should be good for another 26 years.

You need to find a good shop that deals with these cars and is aware of the assembly techniques and torque sequences. It isn't rocket science (If i can do it then...) but they do need to be clean and methodical. I say it's worth spending the money to get it done right. It will give you so much peace of mind for many years to come.
Mike
Engine Drop July 2016 Story by mikedsilva | Photobucket

Originally Posted by Posch

Hello to everyone,

I bought my first and probably only Porsche 911 964. It is a 1993 model with only
52K miles on it, body has no rust and the engine fires up and runs and sounds as it should.
Now to the issue with the engine. It leaks quite a bit of oil after the engine warms up and it definitely has to be addressed. I got a quote for $ 15,000.00 to have it resealed and replace everything else that may needs to be replaced.
Or I had in mind to build a 3.8L engine which was quoted around 20K.
My question is, why not just reseal the engine, with this low miles it may not need any parts at all?
This is the only mechanic I have talked to right now. What can I expect as far as pricing go?
And one last question: It is a regular 964, the VIN# comes up as a "RS Trim" and it does not have the typical rear Window wiper arm. Does anyone have any input on that?
Thanks.

[RedCoupe]

At 50,000 miles, I sure wouldn't expect that the bottom end would need attention unless the car hasn't had proper servicing. Just split my 150,000 mile 1990 case and only the crankshaft thrust bearing and the outer intermediate shaft bearing showed significant wear. My leaking was coming from the o-rings between the case and the cylinder bottoms. Those little o-rings were hard as rocks. The through bolt seals were still pliable and I think were still sealing okay. Changing out the head studs is a good preventative measure. BTW, my 964 was delivered new in Seattle, but didn't have a rear wiper.

[Cairo94507]

Bruce, "Flat6pak" has built a ton of Porsche motors - he did my 3.2. He has the experience and he advised me during my build what he felt was OK to re-use and what needed to be replaced. He kept me completely in the loop with a lot of quality in-progress photos. We always opted for any signs of wear, replace. I told him I wanted to make the engine "right" so that I would not have any issues down the road. His pricing was very fair and the turn around time was great too.
I say if you clean the engine and find out the leaks are not minor little fixes, drop it and have the engine freshened and resealed. Then you can move on to the remainder of the car.

[bazar01]

My 1993 has 115k miles and still dry after addressing just the oil leaks at 84k miles.
Consumes 1 quart of oil every 2000 miles.

Here are the common oil leak fixes.
964 Oil leaks & fixes thread.

[jdbunda]

As others have pointed out, the diagnosis you have is too vague for anyone to be able to give you real opinions. Some sources of leaks are easy fixes without dropping the motor or disassembling. Many fittings and bolts have aluminum crush seals that can leak, especially if they are re-used, and these are cheap to replace. Same with gaskets. Before spending $15-20k, I would have the motor cleaned, drive it some, and properly diagnose the leaks. There are many good independent technicians who can help you with this if you need it.

[betterair]

Data point=FYI, a friend was just quoted a "top end "job estimated @ 12K ,that was on the assumption that it only neded valve guides,new rings and a light hone.

[Posch]

Hello everyone again.
Thanks to the Input from you all, I can tell you I drove the car over the weekend and she runs well, smokes a bit heavy from the exhaust, but only because there is oil in it from the leaks that now are fixed for the most part.
And instead of 15K, I only paid about $ 600.00.
But the mechanic mentioned that a rebuild may be needed rather sooner than later. And I have already read a few threads about leaving it as a 3.6l and maybe do some upgrades and get about 300hp out of it. with Or maybe consider a 3.8l conversion that may boost the power to about +/-350 hp.
Can anyone tell me how much more boost and reward it would be to opt for a 3.8l conversion vs. 3.6l? Did anyone ever drive both and has a comparison? And is it worth the effort and money?

Thanks again.

[Trackrash]

Originally Posted by Posch

Can anyone tell me how much more boost and reward it would be to opt for a 3.8l conversion vs. 3.6l? Did anyone ever drive both and has a comparison? And is it worth the effort and money?

Thanks again.

Worth the money and effort? Only you can answer that.

A friend used to have an RS America with the motor converted to a 3,8. 330 quoted HP. It was compatible to GT3s on the track. That was a few years ago....

[safe]

Originally Posted by Posch

Hello everyone again.
Thanks to the Input from you all, I can tell you I drove the car over the weekend and she runs well, smokes a bit heavy from the exhaust, but only because there is oil in it from the leaks that now are fixed for the most part.
And instead of 15K, I only paid about $ 600.00.
But the mechanic mentioned that a rebuild may be needed rather sooner than later. And I have already read a few threads about leaving it as a 3.6l and maybe do some upgrades and get about 300hp out of it. with Or maybe consider a 3.8l conversion that may boost the power to about +/-350 hp.
Can anyone tell me how much more boost and reward it would be to opt for a 3.8l conversion vs. 3.6l? Did anyone ever drive both and has a comparison? And is it worth the effort and money?

Thanks again.

With some low hanging fruit you can get to around 300, couple it with 3.8 l cylinders it could take you to around 320 (5% displacement increasement).
I have seen 330 in a friends 993 with the above.
350, thats gonna be big bucks... or turbos... or both

[michael lang]

Posch, I understand that you are new to this product so you might have a bit of sticker shock by the estimate you received. I'd say that if you decided to go the route of rebuild for $15,000 or upgrade for $20,000, chances are when you finished you would not be at those numbers and the final totals will always be more than that. There is always that "WYIT" (while you're in there) additional.

Without having seen your car or know more about what was leaking so heavily, I'd say chances are a tech offered you a bandaid as a temporary fix only until you could decide what you wanted to do.

This forum is a great place to start. If you're lucky, you will get the sickness and you will start believing that you can take out, rebuild and reinstall your own engine thus saving you a ton of money on labor so you can put that into upgraded parts. It happens to all of us.

So that we can help you better make your decision, what exactly was it that the mechanic you visited said was wrong with your car that it was leaking so much and recommended a "reseal". I know that 51,000 miles doesn't sound like a lot of miles on an older car but that in all likelihood is probably why it is leaking. The various gaskets and seals have just dry rotted and become very brittle. The other thing you mentioned is your car is a 911 964 and in the very next sentence you stated it is a 993 model. You then stated later in your first post that it is a regular 964 model. If your car is 89-93 (you never indicated which year it was), then you might have the problem of the porous fit between the cylinders and the case that Porsche was so infamous for in the 964 model. If that is the situation, you are facing the inevitable.

Either way you go, you are about to have one hell of a ride. There will be times that you wish you never bought that "stupid car" (that's what my wife calls mine) but as soon as you pull up to that light and people are pointing to your car or say something to you in a parking lot, have the best lap you ever did if you are into DE, step down on the throttle a little extra hard when you are driving under a bridge or through a tunnel because you want to feel the sound of the exhaust bounce off the walls or even just stare at your car in your garage after you've just cleaned it and smile to yourself thinking you have the most kickass car you could, all those headaches and frustrations of a rebuild amazingly seem to become forgotten. Best of luck, please keep us updated.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[Posch]

I try this again. It is a 1993 Porsche 911(964) C4. Thank you for the encouragement of trying to re-build my own engine. With help from you all I may have the confidence to get the right parts for it and really do it.
As far as the car, it was in a barn for about 7+ years so most everything is dry rotted, including the tires.
Besides the engine I would like to build a "one of a kind". Not sure what to do with it yet, factory condition? Or maybe Patena-style leather inside or something like a Singer Model? Maybe you can let me know what would make most sense as far as value and such.
I did not make any pictures of the leaks because the "stupid" car was off the lift already. And because of that thing I cannot afford a wife, either.

Thank you.

[ChrisBennet]

Originally Posted by Posch

And because of that thing I cannot afford a wife, either.

That's what we call "win, win" (don't tell my wife)