Low cost engine stand?
 

Any suggestions on where to find a low cost engine stand? I hope I only need to rebuild my 2.7 once, so the stand would be a one time item. I would rather spend my money all the parts and machine shop work I need to do a quality rebuild.

I looked into this when I was getting started, and for you the answer is no.

The factory engine yoke supports the case directly, much better than the pep-boys special. Guys with aluminum cases have used cheap ones that only hold the studs, and can get away with because the case is stronger. 2.7 with a mag case, it is a bad idea. This is what you need:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/..._eng_stand.JPG

Your best bet would probably be to try and find a used one, since like you said, most folks only use them once.

Tom

My take.....
Considering the *total* cost of a proper rebuild, the cost of the correct tool to hold the motor, is of minor consideration.
When you are reefing on the cam nuts with a 2' breaker bar, you'll be glad the motor is well supported by the 5-arm yoke.

If having the yoke in your tool collection after the work is done bothers you, then sell it.
At any rate, $250 is a lot cheaper than a new case.

noticed one on ebay now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=34202&item=2402357 487

no affiliation etc...

In case there is some confusion, all you need is the yoke part and a "normal" engine stand that has the correct size tube/hole. Some engine stands have a tube that is too small for the yoke to fit in. I use a piece of plastic milk carton to make the yoke fit a little better in the engine stand.
-Chris

For us cheapskates who are also space challenged in the already-too-crowded engine cleanroom (garage), I dispensed with a proper engine stand and instead used my existing HD workbench and equipped it with a HD turntable and a piece of plywood to support the engine. The turntable provides access to all areas of the engine. This setup worked fine all the way up to installing the transaxle (same situation as engine stand). I installed the heat exchangers after the drivetrain went in.

Just another option,
Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

Buy the correct tool - if you're too cheap to purchase it, then you're probably going to be shortcutting other areas, and probably shouldn't be rebuilding your engine. I know this sounds slightly elitist, but it's 100% true.

For those who are truly cheap, I recommend purchasing the stand and then reselling it on eBay. It comes out to be about the same cost as if you rented it. Plus, you can't really damage these either.

The one on eBay is a four-arm stand, which is not as strong as the five-arm stand. The four-arm ones are typically used to rebuild lighter VW motors. I would suspect that this is an early VW stand, and not a Porsche stand...

-Wayne

There were 2 arm stands for the lighter VW/356 motors. The 4 arms are/were for the 911 motors and the 5 arm type came out around the time the same time as the 964 or 993 I think.
I have both and the 4 arm is very stout.
-Chris

Boy, I didn't realize I wasn't doing it the right way w/o an engine stand. Perhaps I'll purchase a $5000 Snap On vehicle lift to change my oil too. No offense, Wayne, but your presumptions based on not using a "proper" engine stand are not accurate, or we could trade workspaces.

Sherwood

Sherwood,
I think one should either get the right stand as opposed to using the wrong stand i.e. one that damages the case. Going without a stand altogether (like you did) would be the best alternative for someone on a budget.
-Chris

Chris,
It wasn't so much the lack of funds but the lack of space that lead me to my engine workstation. An engine stand would allow me to roll the engine around and access all sides. My makeshift turntable allowed me to access all sides, but I didn't see a need to roll it anywhere. I don't see the correlation between being able to rebuild an engine correctly and using an engine stand (at least on a 911 engine), regardless of funding. I would say a lack of knowledge or experience or necessary precision measuring instruments might have more of an effect than the absence of a rolling stand.

I'm sure our favorite whipping boy-engine rebuilding shop (who shall go nameless) uses the proper engine stands too, which means ...... what? Does my Snap-On tool box count for anything? Not much. Does ASE certification? Maybe. I think there's a tendency to obcess about the acoutrements of the trade/hobby instead of basic knowledge. Among others, I suggest getting Wayne's and B. Anderson's book to stay ahead of the curve.

Sherwood

Engine Stand for 911 Rebuild
 

Porschepilot,
The factory type engine yoke is great to have and highly recommended. But the HD engine stand from Pep Boys is just about $60 and will do the work. I personally know several people who have overhauled 911 engines with these Pep Boys engine stands.

I know this is not the factory engine stand but if you could not modify this engine stand to accomodate a 911 engine, you have no business overhauling a motor. This is a very simple modification to accept a 911 motor and you'll be able to do it with very little effort. Just my two-cents.....

Sherwood,
I agree that you don't need a Porsche engine stand. But I would prefer no engine stand to using a "normal" engine stand that only supports the motor by 3 studs especially a magnesium motor. Apparently our friends at MM use normal engine stands and they never seem to have problems ;) ( Link to MM pics with engine stands )
Seriously though, as someone who is probably more skilled in the engineering arts than myself, what do you think of supporting a magnesium case with a "normal" engine stand? Am I worrying for nothing?
I admit I am a bit of a tool junkie but I own exactly one SnapOn tool, a triple square I bought for my VW back in 1987.
-Chris

911 engine stands are not "rocket engineering"; a $49.99 Harbor Freight 1000 lb capacity stand can be readily adapted to be a perfectly adequate four arm 911 engine stand because it comes with four adjustable arms. All one has to do is drill four new holes in the arms to reposition them on the engine stand head and make four stepped bushings out of aluminum or brass to protect the the raised lip of the case (the one that engages the transmission bell housing). This raised lip is where the improper use of universal engine stands can damage 911 engine cases. The stepped bushings go between the bosses on the arms and the case. Use the three threaded holes and one stud that normally connect the engine and transmission to attach the engine to the engine stand. I also replaced all the engine stand grade 5 bolts with grade 8 bolts (for a cost of $4). There are two disadvantages to these Harbor Freight stands: one can't access the rear main seal when the engine is on the stand and once the airboxes are installed the engine can't be fully rotated (360 plus degrees) because the air boxes will hit the engine stand head column (the engine stand head doesn't project out far enough from the head column). One can fully flip the engine though (so it's upside down) by shifting the head in the column tube while turning to get more clearance for the air boxes. The four arm universal engine stand head, if left bolted to the engine, can be used as a lift point combined with the two rear engine mount bushings to make a stable, wide spread lift arrangement. If one also makes a "T" shaped lifting frame or "strong back" with chain legs, the required lifting head room can be reduced and a common engine floor crane may be used to lift and place the engine on the engine stand, furniture dolly or floor jack. I would use some of the money saved to buy the Wilding Engineering tilting 911 engine adapter for floor jacks (sold here on Pelican); IMO this is a far better use of tool and fixturing money than the official five arm engine stand if you're worried about your engine and your own safety. Cheers, Jim

This may not apply to those with CIS, but I leave the carbs off (fan/alt, shroud and exhaust system too) until the engine/trans is installed in the car. This lowers the height needed to roll the engine under the car and makes it a little lighter and easier to handle too. Engine compartment is too tight to install the CIS system after the fact; not a problem with carbs. Not sure about MFI.

Sherwood

Yes. It's *your* opinion.

Re: Engine Stand for 911 Rebuild
 

I personally know a guy who banged a Tijuana hooker bareback. Doesn't mean it is a good idea.

Tom

Stoddards sell (or use to) an adaptor so that a normal four arm stand can bolt to any Porsche case (except the Turbo, probably because of the weight of a complete motor?)
Anyway, the part number is T55.201.300

Gentlemen, Where one ends up in the "make or buy" tool issue all depends on what one's motivations are in rebuilding a 911 engine. It also develops out of one's personal optimization behavior which is usually a complex mix of personal wealth, values, habits, experience, knowledge, fears and courage. How many of us use the "factory engine stand arm or head" and then install the engine with it balanced ("tottering" would be the term a crane rigging instructor would use) on a floor jack for installation into the car? Pick your poison. Some (probably most) on this board rebuild and tinker with 911 engines because they want too, not because they have to. A couple of weeks ago someone made the observation that some of us like tools so much that we have tools to repair tools; this can be extended to the making of tools. Some of the official factory tools can be readily improved upon both in terms of cost and effectiveness. $40 worth of socket parts, 20 minutes on a lathe and 5 minutes with the welder will make a stonger and better balanced tool compared the factory type crows foot wrench used to tigthten cam shaft nuts. Then there are elegant homemade tools that to my knowledge have no factory counterpart: a custom made minature slide hammer kit ($30 worth of materials and an hour on the lathe) for the careful controlled removal of rocker arm shafts from the cam towers comes to mind. Works with the engine in or out of the car without marring the cam tower bores; i.e. no more banging with a punch. These experiences along with some Snap-On tool failures (their steel has a yield strength too) cured me of being a tool snob although I love nice tools as much as the next guy. It would be great to have one of those Hazet cabinets loaded with their tools but I don't think they're worth the expense compared with all the other things I want to do with the same money. Cheers, Jim

This is very silly. Can someone tell me how you can hold the left case half and insert the crank with rods hanging without the Porsche engine yoke and do it safely and cleanly? It has nothing to do with rolling things around.

Depends how you define safely and cleanly.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61441&highlight=engine+ AND+stand

"Can someone tell me how you can hold the left case half and insert the crank with rods hanging without the Porsche engine yoke and do it safely and cleanly?"

Who says you have to preinstall the rods on the crank? Why not install the crank in the crankcase first? This procedure allows you to check if the crank binds when tightening the through bolts - can't do that with the rods installed. Hanging engine not required. Install the rods next.

Sherwood

I say buy the stand (our host seems to have the best prices, too). I've done it both ways. The first time, for the top end rebuild, I cheaped out and made some adapters so my "Pep Boys" stand would hold the engine. I used four studs to hold the engine, and never felt safe (me or the engine). Take into consideration that I have access to a full machine shop and spent probably 8-10 hours making the appropriate pieces. Bill that out at $80-100 per hour and you'll see where I'm going.

This time, for the full rebuild, I bought the stand, and am very impressed.

Think of the purchase of the engine stand as the first step to a proper rebuild. Bedsides, a used one costs almost the same as a new one, so you'd most likely recoup your investment.

Good luck with the rebuild,
Jim

Hi Sherwood,
I've heard of people saying that you should "pull a rod and check the bearing" (without opening the case) but it just seemed like there wouldn't be any room to get to the rod cap. What's the "trick"?
thanks,
Chris

Chris,
Without the cylinder, you should have enough room to remove/install the con rod caps. However, this is easier done during the build process. On a repair, quite a bit of the engine parts must be removed - you're down to the short block at this point.

Sherwood

Wow, this thread has gone from bad to rediculous. The 911 engine is not an easy engine to rebuild. If you can't even use the proper tool (those who use it, know from experience that it is worth every penny) then you're getting off on the wrong foot to start.

Using a universal stand can permanently damage your case. What most people don't realize is that the Porsche-specific tool supports the case using the lip of the stand - not the bolts. So, it provides support over 180 degrees of the case lip - not just at two localized points that a universal stand would support it.

Sherwood, with all due respect, I can't imagine how you can adequately assemble an engine without using an engine stand. When it's time to bolt the case together, and you're spinning that engine back and forth in order to get it all done before the sealant cures? When you're installing the sump plate and the exhaust?

In my opinion, you should use the factory tool and nothing else. I doubt that Jerry Woods or anyone else builds engines using a turntable or a universal stand...

-Wayne

I'll have to look closer next time I have a motor apart. It would be nice not to have to split the case to change rod bolts. From memory, I don't recall being able to see the rod cap from the opposite side. Is it all done from the same side the rod sticks out?
-Chris

This is very silly.

Yes it is.

I have built a number of engines using the 4 arm engine stand.
In order to support the case half while installing the crank, I have a precision measured piece of 2X4 that I use to support the case, after I have the case halves bolted up, I install the other 2 arms, and remove the precision 2X4. I can the rotate the case and wheel the whole engine wherever I please!!!


Its called imagineering....the money I saved from
not buying the factory yoke was used for more important things like hoosiers, beer, or some other parts.

" I can't imagine how you can adequately assemble an engine without using an engine stand. When it's time to bolt the case together, and you're spinning that engine back and forth in order to get it all done before the sealant cures? When you're installing the sump plate and the exhaust?"

Wayne,
Since you asked, I adequately assembled the engine using this method and it seems to work fine. The engine is not that wide. There was no problem inserting the through bolts, o-rings nuts and washers since they're sitting in order below each cylinder spigot on my turntable. Where are they when the engine is hanging? - probably on a work bench next to the engine stand. That's okay too. Is there a shelf below the engine to catch parts that accidently drop? A no-no is placing tools and fasteners on the engine when working on it - especially with so many open orifices for parts to drop through. I know where you can find some nice engine pics using BB's for ballest. How far do parts bounce when they drop from the work area?

I install the sump plate by positioning the engine on the flywheel end. No biggie. The engine isn't that heavy. As was mentioned previously, I install the exhaust system after the engine/trans is installed in the car. As I said before, my setup makes better use of space that is already at a premium. To clarify, I'm not advocating not using an engine stand if space is available. I'm also not advocating jury-rigging a yoke on the engine if it's unsafe or will cause damage to the case.

However, with the engine on a stand, how do you install the flywheel, clutch disk and pressure plate? How do you get the complete engine off the stand safely? Engine hoist or a couple of strong helpers?

Either method of supporting the engine during a rebuilt has it's pluses and minuses. I think this is an example of "more than one way to skin a cat" than a case of correct versus incorrect method. Shouldn't this forum be more concerned with rebuilding than supporting the engine?

Sherwood

Just so you know, the Porsche factory stand allows room for all these parts to bolt on and turn, and there is a place for the flywheel lock too.

Engine Stand
 

Wayne,
I totally disagree with your recommendation. While others have methods completely different from your conventional way means nothing. Have you heard about engineering and creativity?

One example was your recommended way of dropping a 911 using a floor jack. Althought it is the most commonly used method by many. this is unstable and awkward with to performed. I have regularly removed and installed 911 motor/trans at home alone without using a floor jack. That's engineering/creativity with safety as the main goal. And I don't have a hydraulic lift.

There many ways to things right and safe.

Real surfaces (elastic and non-perfect flatness or imperfect contour) stop increasing contact area once the load is transferred. Simply supported beams have no moments at the supports. An eight-inch square four-bolt array has a large moment capability. Enough, time to let this thread die. Cheers, Jim

whatever floats your boat... and never had a problem doing anything..
and like Tim explained.. "It's called imagineering", LOLhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/Lib1.jpg

so to get the rebuild down from my 2nd floor library without touching the cylinders/more "imagineering".. no need to document that everything turned out neuroticall perfect on this BB
....LOLhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads/Lib2.jpg

I am thankful this thread lasted as long as it did for Ron to break out those photos. Let's hail the new hero!

Ron is one of the best "problem solvers" I've ever met...he earns his compliments,that's for sure.

Hey!
Will someone with the "factory" engine yoke go out and measure the diameter of the tube on the yoke that fits into the stock engine stand. I want to know if I need to modify the stock stand.
Wayne, that might be good info to post on the parts page where you pitch the engine yoke.

Here ya' go;
This is the yolk I purchased from Pelican mounted on an engine stand purchased from Pep Boys. They had both a 600lb and 1000lb capacity stands. This is a 1000lb. I wanted a good margin of safety using the 1K since it will be holding a 3.3l turbo engine plus all the peripherals. The yolk fits in the stand with no interference, though it should be shimmed a little to take out the slop. Might try the milk bottle material mentioned earlier...;)

The shaft OD size is approx. 2.354"

Dave

Here's the pic

This may be a dumb question but once you have the yoke (whichever one you decide to use) how do you get the assembly up and attached to the stand? I assume you will need a few friends to lift it...correct?