Low cost engine stand?

[PorschePilot]

Any suggestions on where to find a low cost engine stand? I hope I only need to rebuild my 2.7 once, so the stand would be a one time item. I would rather spend my money all the parts and machine shop work I need to do a quality rebuild.

[emcon5]

I looked into this when I was getting started, and for you the answer is no.

The factory engine yoke supports the case directly, much better than the pep-boys special. Guys with aluminum cases have used cheap ones that only hold the studs, and can get away with because the case is stronger. 2.7 with a mag case, it is a bad idea. This is what you need:



Your best bet would probably be to try and find a used one, since like you said, most folks only use them once.

Tom

[Doug Zielke]

My take.....
Considering the *total* cost of a proper rebuild, the cost of the correct tool to hold the motor, is of minor consideration.
When you are reefing on the cam nuts with a 2' breaker bar, you'll be glad the motor is well supported by the 5-arm yoke.

If having the yoke in your tool collection after the work is done bothers you, then sell it.
At any rate, $250 is a lot cheaper than a new case.

[lcjjbeav]

noticed one on ebay now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=34202&item=2402357487

no affiliation etc...

[ChrisBennet]

In case there is some confusion, all you need is the yoke part and a "normal" engine stand that has the correct size tube/hole. Some engine stands have a tube that is too small for the yoke to fit in. I use a piece of plastic milk carton to make the yoke fit a little better in the engine stand.
-Chris

[911pcars]

For us cheapskates who are also space challenged in the already-too-crowded engine cleanroom (garage), I dispensed with a proper engine stand and instead used my existing HD workbench and equipped it with a HD turntable and a piece of plywood to support the engine. The turntable provides access to all areas of the engine. This setup worked fine all the way up to installing the transaxle (same situation as engine stand). I installed the heat exchangers after the drivetrain went in.

Just another option,
Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

[Wayne 962]

Buy the correct tool - if you're too cheap to purchase it, then you're probably going to be shortcutting other areas, and probably shouldn't be rebuilding your engine. I know this sounds slightly elitist, but it's 100% true.

For those who are truly cheap, I recommend purchasing the stand and then reselling it on eBay. It comes out to be about the same cost as if you rented it. Plus, you can't really damage these either.

The one on eBay is a four-arm stand, which is not as strong as the five-arm stand. The four-arm ones are typically used to rebuild lighter VW motors. I would suspect that this is an early VW stand, and not a Porsche stand...

-Wayne

[ChrisBennet]

There were 2 arm stands for the lighter VW/356 motors. The 4 arms are/were for the 911 motors and the 5 arm type came out around the time the same time as the 964 or 993 I think.
I have both and the 4 arm is very stout.
-Chris

[911pcars]

Boy, I didn't realize I wasn't doing it the right way w/o an engine stand. Perhaps I'll purchase a $5000 Snap On vehicle lift to change my oil too. No offense, Wayne, but your presumptions based on not using a "proper" engine stand are not accurate, or we could trade workspaces.

Sherwood

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by 911pcars
Boy, I didn't realize I wasn't doing it the right way w/o an engine stand. Perhaps I'll purchase a $5000 Snap On vehicle lift to change my oil too. No offense, Wayne, but your presumptions based on not using a "proper" engine stand are not accurate, or we could trade workspaces.

Sherwood

Sherwood,
I think one should either get the right stand as opposed to using the wrong stand i.e. one that damages the case. Going without a stand altogether (like you did) would be the best alternative for someone on a budget.
-Chris

[911pcars]

Chris,
It wasn't so much the lack of funds but the lack of space that lead me to my engine workstation. An engine stand would allow me to roll the engine around and access all sides. My makeshift turntable allowed me to access all sides, but I didn't see a need to roll it anywhere. I don't see the correlation between being able to rebuild an engine correctly and using an engine stand (at least on a 911 engine), regardless of funding. I would say a lack of knowledge or experience or necessary precision measuring instruments might have more of an effect than the absence of a rolling stand.

I'm sure our favorite whipping boy-engine rebuilding shop (who shall go nameless) uses the proper engine stands too, which means ...... what? Does my Snap-On tool box count for anything? Not much. Does ASE certification? Maybe. I think there's a tendency to obcess about the acoutrements of the trade/hobby instead of basic knowledge. Among others, I suggest getting Wayne's and B. Anderson's book to stay ahead of the curve.

Sherwood

[boyt911sc]

Porschepilot,
The factory type engine yoke is great to have and highly recommended. But the HD engine stand from Pep Boys is just about $60 and will do the work. I personally know several people who have overhauled 911 engines with these Pep Boys engine stands.

I know this is not the factory engine stand but if you could not modify this engine stand to accomodate a 911 engine, you have no business overhauling a motor. This is a very simple modification to accept a 911 motor and you'll be able to do it with very little effort. Just my two-cents.....

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by 911pcars
Chris,
It wasn't so much the lack of funds but the lack of space that lead me to my engine workstation. An engine stand would allow me to roll the engine around and access all sides. My makeshift turntable allowed me to access all sides, but I didn't see a need to roll it anywhere. I don't see the correlation between being able to rebuild an engine correctly and using an engine stand (at least on a 911 engine), regardless of funding. I would say a lack of knowledge or experience or necessary precision measuring instruments might have more of an effect than the absence of a rolling stand.

I'm sure our favorite whipping boy-engine rebuilding shop (who shall go nameless) uses the proper engine stands too, which means ...... what? Does my Snap-On tool box count for anything? Not much. Does ASE certification? Maybe. I think there's a tendency to obcess about the acoutrements of the trade/hobby instead of basic knowledge. Among others, I suggest getting Wayne's and B. Anderson's book to stay ahead of the curve.

Sherwood

Sherwood,
I agree that you don't need a Porsche engine stand. But I would prefer no engine stand to using a "normal" engine stand that only supports the motor by 3 studs especially a magnesium motor. Apparently our friends at MM use normal engine stands and they never seem to have problems ( Link to MM pics with engine stands )
Seriously though, as someone who is probably more skilled in the engineering arts than myself, what do you think of supporting a magnesium case with a "normal" engine stand? Am I worrying for nothing?
I admit I am a bit of a tool junkie but I own exactly one SnapOn tool, a triple square I bought for my VW back in 1987.
-Chris

[Jim Sims]

911 engine stands are not "rocket engineering"; a $49.99 Harbor Freight 1000 lb capacity stand can be readily adapted to be a perfectly adequate four arm 911 engine stand because it comes with four adjustable arms. All one has to do is drill four new holes in the arms to reposition them on the engine stand head and make four stepped bushings out of aluminum or brass to protect the the raised lip of the case (the one that engages the transmission bell housing). This raised lip is where the improper use of universal engine stands can damage 911 engine cases. The stepped bushings go between the bosses on the arms and the case. Use the three threaded holes and one stud that normally connect the engine and transmission to attach the engine to the engine stand. I also replaced all the engine stand grade 5 bolts with grade 8 bolts (for a cost of $4). There are two disadvantages to these Harbor Freight stands: one can't access the rear main seal when the engine is on the stand and once the airboxes are installed the engine can't be fully rotated (360 plus degrees) because the air boxes will hit the engine stand head column (the engine stand head doesn't project out far enough from the head column). One can fully flip the engine though (so it's upside down) by shifting the head in the column tube while turning to get more clearance for the air boxes. The four arm universal engine stand head, if left bolted to the engine, can be used as a lift point combined with the two rear engine mount bushings to make a stable, wide spread lift arrangement. If one also makes a "T" shaped lifting frame or "strong back" with chain legs, the required lifting head room can be reduced and a common engine floor crane may be used to lift and place the engine on the engine stand, furniture dolly or floor jack. I would use some of the money saved to buy the Wilding Engineering tilting 911 engine adapter for floor jacks (sold here on Pelican); IMO this is a far better use of tool and fixturing money than the official five arm engine stand if you're worried about your engine and your own safety. Cheers, Jim

[911pcars]

This may not apply to those with CIS, but I leave the carbs off (fan/alt, shroud and exhaust system too) until the engine/trans is installed in the car. This lowers the height needed to roll the engine under the car and makes it a little lighter and easier to handle too. Engine compartment is too tight to install the CIS system after the fact; not a problem with carbs. Not sure about MFI.

Sherwood

[Doug Zielke]

Originally posted by Jim Sims
.............IMO this is a far better use of tool and fixturing money than the official five arm engine stand if you're worried about your engine and your own safety........

Yes. It's *your* opinion.

[emcon5]

Originally posted by boyt911sc
I personally know several people who have overhauled 911 engines with these Pep Boys engine stands.

I personally know a guy who banged a Tijuana hooker bareback. Doesn't mean it is a good idea.

Tom

[Britwrench]

Stoddards sell (or use to) an adaptor so that a normal four arm stand can bolt to any Porsche case (except the Turbo, probably because of the weight of a complete motor?)
Anyway, the part number is T55.201.300

[Jim Sims]

Gentlemen, Where one ends up in the "make or buy" tool issue all depends on what one's motivations are in rebuilding a 911 engine. It also develops out of one's personal optimization behavior which is usually a complex mix of personal wealth, values, habits, experience, knowledge, fears and courage. How many of us use the "factory engine stand arm or head" and then install the engine with it balanced ("tottering" would be the term a crane rigging instructor would use) on a floor jack for installation into the car? Pick your poison. Some (probably most) on this board rebuild and tinker with 911 engines because they want too, not because they have to. A couple of weeks ago someone made the observation that some of us like tools so much that we have tools to repair tools; this can be extended to the making of tools. Some of the official factory tools can be readily improved upon both in terms of cost and effectiveness. $40 worth of socket parts, 20 minutes on a lathe and 5 minutes with the welder will make a stonger and better balanced tool compared the factory type crows foot wrench used to tigthten cam shaft nuts. Then there are elegant homemade tools that to my knowledge have no factory counterpart: a custom made minature slide hammer kit ($30 worth of materials and an hour on the lathe) for the careful controlled removal of rocker arm shafts from the cam towers comes to mind. Works with the engine in or out of the car without marring the cam tower bores; i.e. no more banging with a punch. These experiences along with some Snap-On tool failures (their steel has a yield strength too) cured me of being a tool snob although I love nice tools as much as the next guy. It would be great to have one of those Hazet cabinets loaded with their tools but I don't think they're worth the expense compared with all the other things I want to do with the same money. Cheers, Jim

[john_colasante]

This is very silly. Can someone tell me how you can hold the left case half and insert the crank with rods hanging without the Porsche engine yoke and do it safely and cleanly? It has nothing to do with rolling things around.