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Newbie in need of help. 3.2ss build has gone sideways!
A quick primer on this car: I bought it in late 2015 from a flipper who purchased it from a long time owner. It had a ton of receipts including evidence of a recent motor build. Machine work was performed and photos were included, as well as receipts from Pelican for all the usual suspects (hardware kit, gaskets, bearings, sealants, ect). While I don't know who performed the rebuild, the name on the receipts is a British car restoration shop owner with deep ties to the classic car industry. A little research proved that the targa was his wife's car for roughly 15 years. The sale to me included $30k in receipts and a clean California car so I pull the trigger. It's an awesome car that I've enjoyed immensely. I've been around them since grade school, but this is my first Porsche.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514212792.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514212827.JPG Here's where things take a turn. A few months back the motor developed a squeak. I was only a few blocks from my folks house and put the car up on Dad's lift. We pulled a valve cover to find that the #6 cylinder cam oil squirters were clogged and the cam was bone dry. Now this is a bummer, but not the end of the world. The car already had a #8 nose bearing leak and this would be my excuse to split the case and fix it correctly (although the Tom Amon trick I learned here worked pretty well!). And since we're in there, some 964 cams and an increase in displacement would make the effort worthwhile. So out it comes. Right away we notice a broken head stud, which seemed odd for a fresh rebuild. Also, Dad is responsible for the workbench idea; he says you can never have enough light when working on a motor! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514213425.JPG http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514213425.JPG So we're cruising along (following Wayne's engine rebuilding book for guidance) and we find a Craftsman magnetic pickup tool in the line just below the cooler. It appears the oil pump has been gnawing on it for some time. The tool is aluminum, and now there's aluminum throughout the entire motor. We get deeper into the teardown and it's been deposited on all the bearing surfaces. Also interesting is the use of different head studs throughout. It doesn't appear to be strategic... :confused: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514214248.JPG http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514214248.JPG http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514214308.JPG So now that it's disassembled, I need some advice. Obviously this has escalated beyond the bottom end reseal I initially anticipated. Also, I don't trust any of the work that was done before so I'd like it all evaluated and repaired/replaced as necessary. I've heard good things about Ollie's, Competition Engineering and Supertec (already scored a set of Henry's head studs- they're as advertised). Who do you think would be best suited to help me work through this issue? I've gotten along great searching though old pelican threads for my previous projects but this is a bit of an anomaly. Any feedback would be most appreciated. |
Hi ,well i say what the heck ,who ever had rebuild the engine did a Mickey Mouse job.I do not quite get why he would leave those case studs when the new 993 were installed?
Also way too much of loctite 574 on the engine case. That tool inside the engine was maybe the point of selling the 911.Who knows.Did you show it to the seller,the piece stuck in the oil pump?Might have to replace it.it shows some wear on the gears... Overall it does not look that bad .Main thing is you take the engine apart and now you can do the job correctly.... btw nice job on the engine stand and lights;-) Ivan |
+1 good the you split the engine and found all the hack job.
Triple check everything and take your time. To remove those studs, use allot of heat or send it out and have it done correctly and have the squirters replaced, case journals straightened if needed and hot bathed. Damn, those bearings look horrible, again glad you split it. |
Nice looking car, bummer about the engine issue - that's some serious debris throughout. Cleaning everything REALLY well is going to be an important part of the process. Hopefully your crank journals are OK... and you'll want to take apart that oil pump if it's been chewing on that metal rod for a while - kind of like leaving a surgical tool inside a patient that's been operated on! WTF?
I used Ollies for my 2.7L case work. Be prepared for a long wait, mine took 4-5 months... I'm just getting ready to start assembly now and I was doing the teardown almost exactly a year ago; but I'm super slow... I'd consider sending EVERYTHING out to get checked & refurbed. That's a lot of debris scattered thru the entire motor... Where you send everything? I'd make some calls to the usual suspects listed throughout the many threads here as a starting point to ask about pricing and schedule. It's likely you'll establish a connection with at least one shop/person. It will cost more than you want it to and I'd also suggest going with the shop/person that you think you can have the best RELATIONSHIP with, as that's what will save you when you have questions and concerns etc... Best of luck! Tom |
So much damage from an incompetent mechanic, what a shame. For sure the crank, the intermediate shaft and the cam spray bars will need the plugs removed and have the the metal debris flushed out. It sure looks like your Dad know what he is doing. So take your time and check and clean everything. Stock steel studs are fine. And for sure, there is never too much light when doing engine work, love that stand. Good luck!
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Don't forget to remove and flush all the coolers... or replace them. You be right back where you started if you don't remove all the debris. I don't have experience with the shops you listed, but obviously they have a good reputation. I've used anchor Atlantic 2x for head work and been very satisfied.
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Bummer for sure. But on the positive side, you intervened before total disaster struck. That tool could have jammed the oil pump, oh my.
Cleaning will be a project. All the oil lines, coolers, case, crank, and OIL TANK will have to be surgically cleaned. Quite a job, but doable. Weird that random 964 studs were used. Good luck with your build. Edit; will you be keeping that muffler? My experience is that those are too restrictive for a 3,0L. YMMV |
Wow. I feel for you, that's nuts...
When was the rebuild, how long ago? So someone dropped a tool in the oil tank I presume, and it got sucked into the oil pump pressure side intake?! Did you have any oil pressure??? A lot of guys on this board, myself included, rebuild their own motors. I am paranoid and am quadruple checking everything, to make sure it's done right. Whoever rebuilt that motor really cut some big corners... Good luck, keep us all posted. Several of us in the Milwaukee area are rebuilding right now... Bo |
Further thought.... who did your last oil change? My guess is that the oil dipstick fell into the tank, and someone tried to fish it out with that magnetic tool and it fell off...
That tool wasn't floating in the tank for the last 5 years... I suspect it was dropped in pretty recently... The motor failing is due to the tool being dropped in there. The rest of the motor rebuild quality issues are secondary... You didn't go to Jiffy Lube or something like that? Bo |
As sad as it is to see the motor rebuild was misrepresented, it has created the opportunity for you to now make sure it is all correctly done and to your specifications to give you a terrific motor for years to come. Cheers.
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Thank you for the replies, I appreciate all of the tips and well wishes.
Bo- you make a good point about the tank. While we've done all the maintenance since I purchased it, one thing I thought was strange was that the magnetic portion of the tool was missing. You think the tool sat submerged in the tank until the glue holding the magnet to the tool let go and the aluminum portion flowed downstream to the pump? Just for grins, I'll pull the tank and take a peak with a borescope to see if the magnet is still hanging around. |
I think Bo's magnet in the oil tank theory could be correct. Who knows what the flipper (or some errant mechanic along the way) did. Definitely give that tank (and your oil feed line!) a good going through to make sure you don't experience this problem again with the any remaining portion of that tool that might still be in there ...
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[QUOTE=Tom '74 911;9861081 Cleaning everything REALLY well is going to be an important part of the process.
Best of luck! Tom[/QUOTE] Absolutely!!! When you find foreign material inside your engine... this means you will need to professionally clean your oil galleys, oil pump, oil cooler, and even all your oil lines, front mount oil cooler, tank, and anything else that has oil flow through it. You don't want ANY residual contaminants left over that could cause an issue later on down the road. |
The oil filter did a pretty great job considering the circumstances.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514568195.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514568195.jpg Also, the oil ring on every piston was cracked/broken. Is this normal? http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1514568346.jpg |
Aren`t you glad you took it apart..these rings usually do not break ,mainly on assembly but in your case no oil will do this trick...take your time and enjoy the work, it will not be that bad...
Ivan |
If the oil filtration system on your 3.2 is the same as on the 964 the oil is filtered AFTER its gone through the engine oil galleries which is a bit of a design flaw IMO, if that's the case all those bits of aluminium have already been through the oil galleries, bearings, cam tower, spray bars etc.
You're going to have to be very thorough in cleaning everything and making sure there's nothing left in any of the galleries, cam spray bars etc, personally I'd ditch the cooler and fit a new one, same with the oil tank unless you can be completely sure it's been 100% flushed. Cracking garage BTW |
That just plain sucks! Im a bit confused with the head studs too. Looks like they added the 993 turbo studs as they are fully threaded. Im sure you can sell those off. As for mixing them with what looks like 993 steel studs boggles my mind. As for the tearing down and flushing I think youll be pulling all the plugs. Id remove the piston squirters too and replace. The plugs in the cam towers can be pulled easily enough to flush the spray bars. Good luck with the rebuild! Im sure this will be a PSA to everyone reading about attention to details.
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Jeez, what a mess!
With that said, you did yourself a huge favor by hearing a noise and investigating promptly. If that engine had been run much longer, there undoubtedly would have been a catastrophic failure, and you'd be throwing away half your engine! Well done in that regard, sir. |
Drill your squirters out as well. They are capable of retaining fine particulates. Either replace them with stock or a set of my rebuildable ones. Either way, get rid of the stock squirters and flush out those passages.
Engines like these are why I make squirters..... |
Yikes!
If it were me, I'd be notifying the previous owner and any shops that you can track down that worked on this thing and show them what a mess you've got on your hands - not for restitution, but so that they hopefully learn something and never do this again. Pacific Oil Cooler Services can ultrasonically clean and inspect your coolers and oil tank. What a shame. Hopefully pistons/cylinders can be saved and there is no major scoring on any of the crank surfaces. |
hi Catorce..can i see your squirters??
it does not show on your web? ivan |
Try this
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^ Thank you!
The website guy is off for the holidays, will be up there soon. Meantime if you need anything PM me and back to your regularly scheduled thread! |
That engine may not be fixable. May be better with another core and rebuild that.
Was there a dipstick or anything else in the oil tank? in addition to normal rebuild parts big additions are likely going to be: oil pump, cam, crank, P's & c"s, oil coolers, squirters, head studs etc. There really is not much that can be saved (just the case). Even after rebuild, there will be aluminum somewhere in the system. I would start from scratch with a different motor. Know that sucks but that thing is FUBAR. Just my opinion if it was me. Chris 3.2 Carrera |
Catorce- those squirters are cool! I already ordered a factory set from our host, but your thread was very informative. Once again, I wish you nothing but luck in your air cooled endeavors.
Chris- The block, heads and cam towers are cleaning up nicely so far. Chip and debris everywhere, but between the parts washer, Stomski air nozzle tool, brushes and a 30L ebay ultrasonic tank we're starting to see some progress. The jugs went to Millennium to get punched open to 98mm and the cams have been replaced with a set of 964 regrinds. Rods, crank, case and rockers arms are headed out soon for machining. I've got a Glenn Yee reman oil pump and will likely replace the oil coolers and tank (haven't inspected them yet). The crank has a few score marks, but the journals mic'd at the high limit of the tolerance so they'll probably polish out. The heads were rebuilt recently but I don't trust anything now, so the valves are coming out to double check the guides. Oh, and the head studs came out without heat using a Snap-on stud remover. It's nothing special; just a collet with ID threads. Worked great. Sure, I could have easily (and at less expense) bought a motor from another SC and been back on the road, but where's the fun in that? If we can make this one run again, normal re-seal or top end build will be a walk in the park! |
cmc..i kinda think you might be a drama queen.this is engine will be just fine..all it takes a little or more patience and good cleaning...
Ivan |
Don't sell that stud remover short. Snap On's collet style stud works really good. Almost too good because it encourages guys to remove the studs without heat and i've seen cases where the threads got damaged and then the new stud(s) pulled out. So hopefully your studs were already not firmly Loctite-ed in the case.
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Like to add Performance Developments into the mix of places to use for engine services. Top tier place that has for along time focused on the newer water engines, but is now developing more modern parts for the earlier air cooled engines. All machine work is done in house. They are helping the 911 engine resurrection for Jeff in Australia.
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Bo- where do I send your prize? The dropped dipstick theory was spot on. They went fishing with the magnet and lost that too. When the glue holding the magnet to the tank failed, the oil pump ate it and here we are.
The original dip stick and it’s replacement:http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1515879744.jpg And I’m spending money like a drunken sailor. Just have to hide the CC statements ;) http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1515879744.jpg |
I was wrong... there were two in the bottom of the tank.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1515880422.jpg |
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Sweet Jesus! What you're uncovering is just disgusting displays of shoddy "workmanship" in its previous life [shakeshead]
I'd be fascinated to hear who in the UK has had their hands on it....feel free to PM me (I'm in the uk, heard many horror stories of supposedly reputable outfits over here, and unfortunately had dealings with a couple of them)....you never know, it may be one of the UK usual suspects that I can shed some light on for you. Or if not then (selfishly) another name I'll add to my list of no-go zones. |
I went through something similar and feel your pain!
I bought my car with 161k miles on it, about 8k miles on a split case rebuild. I did my research on the shop that rebuilt it, didn't find anything good or bad about them. My general rule is to never buy a car with less than 7-8k miles on a rebuilt engine.. but this one looked okay so i went for it. I put about 5-6k miles on the car, towards the end of that i was using nearly 1qt every 5-600 miles. I found a host of other issues while sorting the car out and really lost faith in the engine rebuild that was done. Also, i spent a few weeks trying to sort out a lean running issue which turned out to be a poorly adjusted air flow meter, likely an attempt to make the car pass emissions. This was really the final thing that put me over the edge and i decided to have a split case rebuild done. The guy that built my engine found every piston and cylinder was scored and multiple valves that were bent. https://i.imgur.com/CkuHPNQl.jpg After many dollars spent, i now have 6k miles on an engine that does not burn or leak a drop of oil and complete confidence to take this car on long trips and regularly shift at redline. The dent in my bank account hurt for sure, but it was a good opportunity to get the car exactly how i want it. I dont blame the guy i bought the car from but rather the shop for such a poor job done; was tempted to send them pictures of the p/c's and the broken rings...but moved on and put it behind me. |
So no one could figure out that the dip sticks go in the little hole
AND they are non magnetic stainless steel? :rolleyes: |
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Enjoy the rebuild. Plan to work on mine tomorrow but it's damn cold outside... Not sure I can get the workshop hot enough... |
No recourse on the previous build; it was assembled by a previous owner who is no longer in the restoration business. And now that we pulled the tank, I’m certain that the magnet (and at least one of the dipsticks) were in that tank for decades. I’m sure the PO had no idea there was the equivalent of a live grenade hiding in the tank. The head stud issue and the few other mistakes we found are water under the bridge.
Cylinders are back from Millennium Plating and Ben (MB911) is finishing up restoration on the fan and housing. Rockers, rods and crank are being machined and I’ll have a local guy balance the assembly when the parts return. The case, heads and cam towers are cleaning up nicely. I’m going to tackle replacing the piston squirters next. Thanks for everyone’s input and stay warm! |
What a mess, so sorry. Subscribed so I can learn. BTW, I'm copying your Dad's lighting tower. Its awesome.
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