Cat Code Plug -- Closer to an understanding

[Derry Walsh]

Okay, here’s the deal on the cat-code plug.
A friend of mine has the ability to capture and read the data from the stock "S" EPROM chip. Here is what he found when he looked at my '01 U.S. chip.

There are 6 different configurations on the chip. There’s actually room for 8 but they don’t use the last 2. The first configuration is R1100 s ECE/Kat. This he thinks is the configuration that is used when the cat plug is removed (Europe perhaps?). The second configuration is R1100 s US/Kat. I imagine this one is selected when you have the US (pink or yellow?) cat plug installed. The remaining four are something like R1100s ECE/nMax, R1100s US/nMax, R1100s CH/Kat and CH/nMax. "CH" is for Switzerland.
There are only 2 differences between the 6 configurations:

1. The description that is sent to the MoDiTec screen when it’s first connected to the bike.
2. Possibly more aggressive timing or fuel when you roll on the throttle.

But that’s it. The basic timing and fuel maps are the same for all 6 configurations. So here’s a question:

Which one of the configurations is tuned on the Laser chip? If it’s the US/Kat configuration then without the cat code plug you would be running the untuned European configuration. If it’s the ECE/Kat configuration then leaving the cat plug in would get you nothing. My suspicion is that they would have tuned both the ECE and US configuration to avoid the cat code plug issue.
Any ideas?

[roger albert]

I don't believe any of the factory maps vary ignition from one to the other.

[repoe3]

this thread looks to get very interesting considering if someone can source the different CCP and dyno and do some on-road tests, just think of the data we could collect. come on, someone can do it...

repoe3

[roger albert]

This is all pretty old stuff. You can also swap plugs and do roll ons. The differences are pretty minimal. What's there to source. The CCP is just a dumb jumper in a plastic box. I hope no one wastes a bunch of cash dynoing with different cat code plugs. It would be about as useful as with different spark plugs

[Joe]

Derry

I think your missing the point when you put in a Laser chip it's map is different then the original BMW chip. It has the same program on all cat/code configurations so moving jumpers or color plugs make no difference.


The only advantage I can see of changing jumpers is with a BBP chip which had 5 maps plus stock I think it's at 7 now.

I made this 6 position test switch box(relay plug) for that purpose once you have the stage setting you want then you put in a hard wire jumper. It's like having every color CC plug on a switch.

[Derry Walsh]

Roger,
With all due respect... You have missed the point. Repoe has seen the potential in this thread. The key is not the CCP but instead the parameters of the EPROM chip. There are so many chips out there and so little documentation. Translated, hand-typed or hand written instructions or anecdotal advise are all we get. The key is in understanding the coding of the chip. Going forward I hope to have more information about other chips to share.

[roger albert]

Hi Derry,

Maybe I am, but I don't think so, and likely the converse. As Joe said, the CCP is meaningless for most chips. They put the same map in each location, so the catcode means NOTHING. It is just a dumb hunk of wire that says which map to use. If all the maps are the same, then the plug matters not. People seem to be understanding the CCP very out of context (though Joe obviously has it right)

I would add that the final production RhineWest chips have a pair of maps and the plug (or your own handy hunk of wire) does select one of two maps (stock and low restriction)

So sure, it's the EPROM chip that matters (or could) but if the EPROM chip is not programmed to matter (much) as is the case with the stock chip, then the jumper won't matter much either.

I'm just trying to keep people from misinformedly wasting their cash. Look, even with a radically altered bike folks are able to gain what, maybe 12 hp. With a stock bike (they all have the same intake and exhaust and cams etc etc) the difference from one chip setting to another is at most 1/10 as much, which is way less than you get from bike to bike variances, or for that matter, from dyno run to dyno run variances anyway. It's a great exercize on paper (though with very little expected result) but close to meaningless in the real world. I like theory AT LEAST as much as the next guy (probably more) but there's a point where it get's pretty ridiculous.

Multiple Dyno runs with the BBP or RW chip make some sense (though for some configs, those are already supplied anyway) but for the stocker...???

[repoe3]

so we are saying that while there are at least 4-5 "maps" on the stock chip, they are all the same? if so, then why bother? of course i already have an FIM chip, but it would be interesting is the actual data was available from the stock chip, but i assume it is encrypted or locked somehow via the software.

repoe3

[roger albert]

No, they are not identical. They are however very very close. After all, they are all config'd to work with basically the same intake, cams, pistons, exhaust etc etc.

Once again, even _very_ different maps only yield 10-12 hp difference, and that only with _very_ different hardware. With only small hardware differences and very very small map/sw differences, you can expect the horsepower difference to be on the order of 1, maybe.

You'll find much greater differences dynoing 5 stock used Ss and picking the more powerful. (or running any given S on 5 dynos and choosing to believe the one showing 1-5hp more output)

One stock map to another is lost in the noise from a peak HP standpoint.
It can however offer a bit of enrichment and improved driveabililty at part throttle and load conditions. A dyno employed in for the typical top HP readings is not a good tool to measure that with though.

It's interesting, but I'd hate to see some poor guy blow 4 bucks of dyno time to maybe show an HP. Would be interesting, admittedly. I guess I'm just trying to set realistic explanations. If someone is inclined to fund it and carry it out, I'm all ears. Heck Repoe, I nominate you.
In fact, show me some interesting data and mail me good quality copies and I'll cover 10% of your costs. I either prove my point, or am proven wrong and learn something I was too obstinate to foresee, which is really pretty much a win-win scenario.

[repoe3]

hey i already qualified that i am on not running the stock chip and do not plan on going back. but it is topics like these that i really enjoy reading about and learning more. i did not know the differences were very subtle, or else i would not have asked the question! the next step for me, i think, will be the cam sprockets and new chip, for obvious reasons. but thanks for the nomination. but i diplomatically decline.

repoe3

[roger albert]

Hi Repoe,

I understand exactly. I've even declined a free chip before, because it didn't look to be a better deal than the aftermarket one I already had.
Just not worth the effort of pulling and splitting the Motronic. The sprockets are tempting though. I can see that happening on my end too.

So from the data that Derry has from the chip there are six maps. Two for the US, two for Switzerland and two for the rest of Europe. Can one assume that one of each pair is the standard map and one the emergency map for use when a sensor fails?

The only difference between the 3 area codes is one of emission regulations, so can one also assume that the the Swiss code will make the engine run weakest, followed by the US then Europe the richest. As the Europe (or at least the UK) models come without a code plug fitted this would appear to be the best setting for all bikes.

[Romain]

hi,

what map you select on the stock-chip does affect the way, your engine is running. I own an R-RS and I swapt the LYB with a LPB, basically selecting another map from the stock-chip. the affect on the engine is noticable. my RS was allmost unridable due to surging. above 3000rpms, vibrations were a problem and below, the engine was a ***** in surging. with the LYB inn, the engine is now ridable starting 1400rpm in 4th gear - something unthinkable with original setup, as the engine would die instantly! no caughing, NO surging, and the level of vibration has diminished to a point where it is no longer a problem. it uses more fuel now, I get around 20-30kms less out of a tank.

so, what map you select DOES affect the way the engine runs. it's mostly on emmission, where it plays. my readings say, that CO emission goes up above 3%, where it was below EU-car standards with LPB inn. peak power goes down a bit, I guess around 5 HP as I loose around 7km/h in topend-speed (GPS measure). but the bike is now a pleasure to ride.

imo, the different maps are used to limit the emission level in different countries. somebody told me it only affects the low to midrange rpms as above 4/4500rpms, the map is optimized for power and in this part of engine speed emission is no longer a vital homologation parameter. this somewhat cobtradicts mine and a friends experience on the RS, that topend goes down a little bit.

what it does to my cat-converter? another question, I guess it will ruin the cat longtime?

bye

[roger albert]

Yes, it can, as I said, improve rideability a bit, but not a lot, and yes, at the cost of mileage. I'm just saying there's no real HP there. Pulling the plug defaults to a map somewhat richer at lower throttle settings. The way the motronic is designed, it won't help top end. Every set of roll on tests I've ever done confirms that. Part throttle response will be better.
If the bike surges worlds less just by removing the plug, then it wasn't properly adjusted to begin with. A richer mixture just helps to mask a fault.

[Joe]

I think if you read Derry's post close he states there are 6 maps but only two are different so I would think any CC plug would be the same mapping and remove the CCP would be the other map(default?)

[roger albert]

That's not how I read it (nor do I believe that to be the case)
I read 6 different maps, two of which he discusses. He also mentions two differences between any given pair of maps, the ID-code and the fuel map. As usual, I could be wrong. Happens too often for my comfort

[Joe]

There are 6 different configurations on the chip. There’s actually room for 8 but they don’t use the last 2. The first configuration is R1100 s ECE/Kat. This he thinks is the configuration that is used when the cat plug is removed (Europe perhaps?). The second configuration is R1100 s US/Kat. I imagine this one is selected when you have the US (pink or yellow?) cat plug installed. The remaining four are something like R1100s ECE/nMax, R1100s US/nMax, R1100s CH/Kat and CH/nMax. "CH" is for Switzerland.
.There are only 2 differences between the 6 configurations:

1. The description that is sent to the MoDiTec screen when it’s first connected to the bike.
2. Possibly more aggressive timing or fuel when you roll on the throttle.
But that’s it. The basic timing and fuel maps are the same for all 6 configurations.

added..........it was a little confusing

I see the ID label on the map(which dose nothing) but he states he read no difference between maps.

I would think you would have to read outputs(injector duration & timing) to see any change in a dynamic state not on a bench. There might be changes that effect other(sensor) inputs??

[Derry Walsh]

Now we are getting down to it gentlemen...
When I started this thread I said NOTHING of performance. Increasing, decreasing or other wise. When I installed my own Laser chip in my bike I was *hoping* for a little more power but mainly I was looking at increasing *ridability*. The vague instructions that came with my chip explicitly said to remove the cat code plug on both GS and RS models but the S was not mentioned. The Boxer cup guys have been very forth coming with their go fast findings but they really don't care how well their machines burble along at 3000rpm.
Insight into the parameters of the various chips can only be valuable to understanding the entire motronic system used by the 'S'. I mean look at the number of posts and confusions on the whole cat code/chip issue. I am entertained by, and appreciative of, "seat of the pants impressions", dyno run graphs and side by side drags and badly translated aftermarket instructions. Give me some hard data from the EPROM chips themselves!
My friend doing the chip anylysis has designed and installed his own turbo on his 911 and has remapped his EPROM. His curiosity about the Chips on the S are just to contribute to his overall knowledge of Bosch Motronic systems.

[brad black]

romain - the r1150 series bikes all run the same ecu, with maps for rs/rt, gs/r and the 'bad fuel' gs adventure map. so if you swapped ccp on a r1150 model you may very well make it run like ****.

of course, the fact you didn't know what you were effecting made the swap meaningless, right? that's the whole problem with these ccp discussions - people have no idea what change they are making, and the 'seat of the pants' results are all we get, and can vary.

all the s maps are exactly the same in fuel and ignition number terms - as joe stated. there must be a difference in the software to make them run different, but it seems no one has really found it yet. same as the differences in the two rs/rt maps on the 1150 series ecu probably, where the ccp swap is supposed to reduce surging.

not sure how the aftermarket chips are set up. the vandelinde chip from mick's bike had the pipe map only on the very first map, so all others were still std. fim put the 'new' map over all 8, just to make sure a fiddler can't get it wrong.

not sure about lazer - never seen one.

i too would like to know more, but i don't have the equipment to do anything with it. that's why i just get duane to do it all. i don't have enough hours in the day either.

[roger albert]

Basically the same, yes, but not identical.
I can assure you they're not the same.
I don't see what's so confusing about this.
Of course, my dayjob is embedded systems test engineering, but still, there are no great mysteries here, other than a bit in the algorithms. The maps are just maps. Hard coded data tables. The plug (wire/switch) just determines which hard/statically coded map to use. The problem is that most folks don't understand electronic engine control (or traditional) or embedded computers or chips at all, much less these specific systems.

As for the boxer cup guys, I've seen NO info there. It's not even relevant, as they surely have different maps. What jumper or ccp they use for a special chip has nothing to do with what any given ccp does for a stock chip (or any other chip)

Aarvarks and Oranges Gentleman.

Joe, I see your point, but reading the injectors and timing would basically provide an idea of what dynamic adjustments th e various sensors can contribute too. The 1 or 2 or 6 or 8 maps are static and can be read sitting in a programmer. No dynamic measurement needed data table wise. Would be fun to play with none the less. I've just picked up one of those nifty (but low resolution) led bar graphs showing injector dutycycle so I can do just that (some automotive hi Z meters will let you get some insight into that on the cheap just by selecting the dwell range)

Cool topic at any rate.