HP2 Sport - first ride reports

[Dr. Curve]

Exactly SAHD.......................Mal, the main problem others will need to solve about the HP2 Sport......is how to catch it.

[JRMSR]

Originally Posted by Kristian,CO

Kinda like the GT500?

Yea, your right with that one. I'm glad I didn't pay what the majority are asking. But like I said before, online dealers are just the start of jacking up the price. No dealer is stocking the motorcycle, it must be ordered with a nonrefundable deposit. I already know what I'm paying for mine. I'm just going to sit back and see how far most the dealers will go in inflating the price. Anyone check on how much a dealer will give for an used R1200S in pristine condition and low miles? You'd be supprised!

I suppose the idea here is, hold off and make the dealers come off the price, especially if they are going to jack it up over MSRP. It's a wonderful bike, but if BMW is going to be successful in selling it, they'd better offer it at the advertised price and disallow the dealer to inflate the cost.

It's ashame that we have such a wonderful bike at our disposal but few will be able to afford it because of dealers making it more illusive by selling them over MSRP. Dean, I told you this was going to happen! It's nothing but the franchise dealers greed at work. I've already heard of dealers offering them at $2,000.00 above MSRP. If you want to know what the MSRP is then just ask your dealer. It's been released by BMW and they are accepting delivery orders for late june as I type. Have your dealer call the BMW Factory Rep he'll tell you.

Cheers

Jeff

[JRMSR]

Originally Posted by SAHD

The message is...

"Beemers are at home globe trotting around the world or leading a World Superbike Race on the most famous tracks raced by man."

Now let's drink the kool-aid and get on with it!

SAHD, I will agree with you about the ability of the BMW HP2 but it will be outclasses in AMA Superbike even with the advent of 1200CC limit for Twins. Make no mistake it will have admirable showings, but it will not dominate any manfacture, without some serious addition of horsepower. To many of the tracks lean toward front straight speed in the AMA ie, Road Alanta, Mid Ohio, etc. A good Superbike will require acceleration/ speed as well as agility. BMW will be sorely lacking in that speed/acceleration catagory compaired to Ducati or Aprilla. They've been developing their packages for many years for the purpose of Superbike racing. To lure a good factory racer they will have to be able to display this acceleration and speed. I don't think that the bikes development will warrant this for at least several years or possibly never.

Additionally, unless the BMW factory is willing to invest a considerable amount of development money and time, it's not going to compete as it should. It's the whole package, not just the bike that wins Superbike races. Ducati is willing and has spent this money over the years. You'll see just what I'm talking about this next season, if they choose to compete.

A little sample of this is the street legal 190 HP 1098 that will be available to the general public this year. Yea it's 35K+ but that's just what's comming on the street side. Now take Ducati 1098 with 200+ HP in a 360lb package with say a, Mat Maladin, Ben Spies, or Eric Bostrom and see what happens. BMW isn't going to spend that kind of money for a factory team. They've never done it before, as in the past they will leave it up to a private factory sponsored team, to make those milestones and it just won't be enough to overcome a dedicated Ducati or Aprilla Factory effort.

No matter what it does with the twin, it won't ever overcome the horsepower/acceleration obstacle. Maybe with the K but not the twin. I love this bike and its concept, but I personally think that they would be outclassed both in HP/acceleration, additionally with top notch riders available to ride it. I believe that your being just too optimistic.

What the HP2 is, is an outstanding example of what German engineering and design, of course at a price. It can complete at the top of a privateer level with factory help but it's not designed as a world beater! If they had the slightest thought that it was, then they (BMW) are definately deluded and so are you. (no offense intended).

Cheers

Jeff

[RC51DRAG]

Originally Posted by JRMSR

No that's a $1000.00 gouge! It's begins, just like I told you it would. Dealers are already stacking the chips. Man that really sucks!! I'd say that any dealer that sells them above the retail should be boycotted!

Cheers

Jeff

I agree it's not a gouge; it's dealers capitalizing on those who simply must have the latest and greatest. I have no problem with it since there is nothing underhanded or covert about it; I just wait until the hype is gone. It's overt and if people are willing to pay it so be it. I'm not and I'm surprised its happening with the HP2 Sport. Yes it's rare, very cool and highly desireable but it's highly desireable to a select group ( a few on here), within a select group (sporting boxers), within a select group (BMW owners). Hardly a dealer's normal target for charging more than list. I've talked with two dealerships and both seem to have made it pretty clear it's going at list or less.

[throttlemeister]

Jeff, it is just economics. I doubt you are upset if a dealer sells a low-selling bike thousands under MSRP or even at wholesale just to get rid of it.

MSRP is Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price. Aka the price the manufacturer feels it's worth selling for. But it is a suggestion, not a demand or a fixed price. Ultimately, it is not you or the manufacturer that decides the price, it is the person selling that sets it. If he sets it too high, he will not sell. Simple supply and demand thing.

You're an American. You're supposed to love free market by your DNA. If you demand dealers to never sell over MSRP, the dealers will not sell below MSRP either. Leave free market alone. If you think price is too high, suck it up and move on, or cough it up and enjoy.

[EZ-RIDER]

Originally Posted by throttlemeister

Jeff, it is just economics. I doubt you are upset if a dealer sells a low-selling bike thousands under MSRP or even at wholesale just to get rid of it.

MSRP is Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price. Aka the price the manufacturer feels it's worth selling for. But it is a suggestion, not a demand or a fixed price.

You're an American. You're supposed to love free market by your DNA. If you demand dealers to never sell over MSRP, the dealers will not sell below MSRP either. Leave free market alone. If you think price is too high, suck it up and move on, or cough it up and enjoy.

Well when I was at the show at Atlanta yesterday, Talked to the BMW factory rep and ask why they were going to sell the bike for over $25,000 and he said it's a BMW and your paying for an exclusive club, and then he mentioned
the New Ducati 1098R that it was $ 39,000. very arrogant and I told him that a new Ducati 1098S had ohlins and was putting out 160 hp and was selling for 19,995 and was a better bike!

[JRMSR]

Originally Posted by throttlemeister

Jeff, it is just economics. I doubt you are upset if a dealer sells a low-selling bike thousands under MSRP or even at wholesale just to get rid of it.

MSRP is Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price. Aka the price the manufacturer feels it's worth selling for. But it is a suggestion, not a demand or a fixed price. Ultimately, it is not you or the manufacturer that decides the price, it is the person selling that sets it. If he sets it too high, he will not sell. Simple supply and demand thing.

You're an American. You're supposed to love free market by your DNA. If you demand dealers to never sell over MSRP, the dealers will not sell below MSRP either. Leave free market alone. If you think price is too high, suck it up and move on, or cough it up and enjoy.

I have to disagree in some respects. MSRP is the generally the top price set for a particular item, in this case we are talking about the HP2 Sport. Allowing a franchised dealer to sell it above the suggested manfactures price destroys the market and hurts the manfacture directly. If you can't sell the product then the manfacture will simply not produce it for very long.

You can't produce at $16,500 and set the price at MSRP of $25K and sell it for $28 or 30K, thats greed nothing more. Many manfactures have recently started to post their lowest prices that they will allow a dealer to sell at, so as not to allow it's devaluation. That's specifically why Walmart has lost many Sporting Goods connections and manfactures. This is why they are slowly getting out of the Sporting Goods business, no one wants to deal with them at their price.

In retrospect, when you sell it above the MSRP you automatically limit the amount of units you are going to sell and produce. There is no free market as per your analagy. There are plenty of BMW owners here that would like to buy one but are not going to be able, if dealers sell above MSRP.

Free markets are not controlled by manfactures and dealers. It's controlled by you and I. When a manfacture sets a suggested retail price it is generally the maximum the market will bear. If the franchise dealer sells it above the MSRP, then he automatically reduces the amount of overall sales for the manfacture. Hence limiting the market, which is not being driven by you or I. Contrary to your belief, manfactures produce for high consumption not limited or low consumption to make money, Excluding artisan manfactures that cater to the wealthy. BMW does not cater to just the wealthy. So their focus is on high consumption sales not single high dollar sales.

Keeping this in mind, if you allow dealers to inflate the cost of their motorcycle, it hurts their overall manfactures projected sales. Why, you limit your sales to only those that will pay the over inflated price. This hurts you the consumer and the manfactures directly. The market will eventually balance out and the price will come down because the dealer can't sell them but not as a positive for the manfacture or the dealer. It hurts reputations and overall sales.

Prime example, Ford and the Shelby GT500. Instead of producing and selling a very successful auto and bolstering their overall sales. They have allowed dealers to set prices far above their suggested sales price. It has upset many return Ford customers, people who could have afforded it a $45K but instead put it into a relm of only those that can afford a $60K+ auto. Everyone knows Fords bottom line is in bad shape and the Shelby GT500 has hurt overall sales according to Ford. Production is at and end with exception to the GT500KR which was a special agreement between Carrol and Ford. After that, it's over for the GT500 according to Ford.

[RC51DRAG]

Originally Posted by JRMSR

I have to disagree in some respects. MSRP is the generally the top price set for a particular item, in this case we are talking about the HP2 Sport...

You can't produce at $16,500 and set the price at MSRP of $25K and sell it for $28 or 30K, thats greed nothing more. ...

Prime example, Ford and the Shelby GT500...

Sure you can, remember the R1LE that, at least in Canada, sold out? At the time it was over double the Canadian price, $30,000 Canadian to the regular R1's $12-13,000 Canadian. Same motor, slipper clutch that showed up 6 months later, aluminum not magnesium rims as originally believed. Only the Ohlins were a true upgrade (how much is debatable given the performance of the stock suspension - PB magazine had a test where the R1LE beat the stock R1 by 100ths of a second) and if you were really using it on track you would still want it revalved for your weight/riding ability etc. So for a 3rd of the premium you could build a stock R1 that would smoke the halo model. The same could be said of the HP2 Sport, to some degree.

The Ford GT is a puzzler. I was looking at buying one last summer/fall and was quite surprised to see the mark up into the $70,000 Canadian territory, well into superior performance markets dominated by new/used Porsche's, BMW's etc.

I agree and am quite surprised by the dealer mark ups for the HP2 Sport; they never occurred with the HP2 as far as I can recall. I would think the HP2 would have garnered that type of mark up of any model of the HP line, given the success of the (12)GS platform.

[RC51DRAG]

RRW has what I feel is a very fair review of the HP2 Sport. The writer, whose name escapes me at present, is a track day rider/racer as is customary on RRW and owns an R1, year unknown. What I liked about the report is that he focused simply on the key performance factors of the Sport, the tech which is always BMW's focus, suspension performance, compared it slightly to a Japanese I4 and discussed the BMW fan base and what this models means to them.

[JRMSR]

Originally Posted by RC51DRAG

Sure you can, remember the R1LE that, at least in Canada, sold out? At the time it was over double the Canadian price, $30,000 Canadian to the regular R1's $12-13,000 Canadian. Same motor, slipper clutch that showed up 6 months later, aluminum not magnesium rims as originally believed. Only the Ohlins were a true upgrade (how much is debatable given the performance of the stock suspension - PB magazine had a test where the R1LE beat the stock R1 by 100ths of a second) and if you were really using it on track you would still want it revalved for your weight/riding ability etc. So for a 3rd of the premium you could build a stock R1 that would smoke the halo model. The same could be said of the HP2 Sport, to some degree.

The Ford GT is a puzzler. I was looking at buying one last summer/fall and was quite surprised to see the mark up into the $70,000 Canadian territory, well into superior performance markets dominated by new/used Porsche's, BMW's etc.

I agree and am quite surprised by the dealer mark ups for the HP2 Sport; they never occurred with the HP2 as far as I can recall. I would think the HP2 would have garnered that type of mark up of any model of the HP line, given the success of the (12)GS platform.

So the bottom line is at $50K you might have bought one but at $70K Canadian you aren't. The market won't bear the price. It limits sales, production and availability. Why would you spend $69,000 for a $45,000 dollar car? Maybe as collector or a status symbol or both. Not everyone is in this catagory. Most consumers want value for their dollar. Not more dollars for their value. You'll sell more to your target consumer, make more people happy, and the manfactures will profit as well as the dealers. I think that you'll find this true in all cases and with anyone.

Frankly, the BMW is not that exclusive when compared to the Ducati Desmosedici or it's new 1098R 190HP little brother. It's more like the 1098S with 160HP at $19,000+TTL. By the way, I'm not paying over $25K for mine.

[throttlemeister]

Jeff, if the market could not bear the price, they would not price it as such. Cause as much as they love to make profit, they hate having to eat their investment if they don't sell. So your argument is flawed. It is simple economics.

If demand is high and supply is low, prices will go up and will continue to go up until either supply or demand changes. Prime example are certain Italian supercars which cost more second hand than they are new, simply because there is a waiting list of several years for a new one from the factory.

Given the limited numbers of the HP2 sport we will be getting this year, I'd be suprised if the US gets much more than 100 units. That means supply is low, even only looking at the BMW fanbase. Which means that if there is just a little bit of demand, there is room for prices to go up. So again, simple economics.

Just because you feel you shouldn't pay more than MSRP doesn't mean dealers are killing the market. The market ALWAYS sets (and gets) the price it is willing to pay. If that is higher than you as an individual are willing to pay that's your personal choice, but if the market set the price out of your range, you are ***** out of luck.

[Dr. Curve]

Each dealer knows what to ask in his area of the world or country. I hope at least five of us pelican brothers get one for whatever price we can..............MSRP, more, or less.............just so we get the bikes on line here as soon as they land. We will help expand this forum just a little more with our collective reports and forge in even closer to the R11S and R12S faithful.
Still..........to think of that new valve train........and all those extra revs before red-line.............that get combined with less weight, nimble geometrics, and great brakes.........my head starts to swim and all I know is this one will be worth keeping in a warm garage.

[EZ-RIDER]

Hey Doc;

Isn't that what you said about the last three to four new BMW motorcycles!
Oh and if you don't like the riding position on the Ducati 1098 you won't like the
new Hp2 sport ! I don't see someone riding cross country on R1200S HP2

[RC51DRAG]

Originally Posted by JRMSR

So the bottom line is at $50K you might have bought one but at $70K Canadian you aren't. The market won't bear the price. It limits sales, production and availability. Why would you spend $69,000 for a $45,000 dollar car? Maybe as collector or a status symbol or both. Not everyone is in this catagory. Most consumers want value for their dollar. Not more dollars for their value. You'll sell more to your target consumer, make more people happy, and the manfactures will profit as well as the dealers. I think that you'll find this true in all cases and with anyone.

Frankly, the BMW is not that exclusive when compared to the Ducati Desmosedici or it's new 1098R 190HP little brother. It's more like the 1098R with 160HP at $19,000+TTL. By the way, I'm not paying over $25K for mine.

Bottom line I'll have to wait a few years to buy one used or possibly new when the hype and prices return to earth. What makes me question dealer mark ups or to be more specific people paying dealer markups are the plethora of quality performance halo vehicles out there today. Going $20,000 more would require me to be a Mustang nut ignoring everything else out there. When talking about the HP2 Sport the same argument can be made; too many good motorcycles to justify paying more than list. When I bought the HP2 I received a reasonable deal but sometimes I've been forced to wait for the hype to die down. My RC51 comes to mind. I recall what I paid, compared to my buddy who bought his in the first year. Still I had to wait 2 years to get a good deal.

The value for the dollar argument gets strained when considering sporting motors. Given the ever increasing policing and insurance premiums sport motors offer the weakest value for the dollar. Really we are talking exclusive models in a pleasure sport, not a necessity of life.

Measuring exclusivity?

Few motorcycles are as exclusive as the D16RR and the 1098R will only be as exclusive as the number of versions Ducati choose to release (Bayliss rep, Biaggi rep etc.). But I do not think exclusivity will really be a huge contributing factor for HP2 Sport buyers.

[twodear]

Originally Posted by SAHD

USA pricing confirmed?
$25,850

http://www.bmwmoc.com/new_vehicle_detail.asp?veh=63769&pov=734160
http://www.powersportsnetwork.com/enthusiasts/pre_owned_detail.asp?PreOwnedVehicleCode=734160

AAaarrrggghhh...

ASSuming that the US$25850 is 'retail', I used my fingers and toes to do some maths.

Todays news was that the Oz$ was worth US$0.87. This roughly translates to a tad under Oz$30k. So where do the buggers get off placing our 'retail' price at Oz$34,750?

B*st*rds, lousy rotten no good cheating b*st*rds.

Oh well, it's only money...I'm getting one anyway. Free market, huh? Stinks!

[JRMSR]

Originally Posted by throttlemeister

Jeff, if the market could not bear the price, they would not price it as such. Cause as much as they love to make profit, they hate having to eat their investment if they don't sell. So your argument is flawed. It is simple economics.

If demand is high and supply is low, prices will go up and will continue to go up until either supply or demand changes. Prime example are certain Italian supercars which cost more second hand than they are new, simply because there is a waiting list of several years for a new one from the factory.

Given the limited numbers of the HP2 sport we will be getting this year, I'd be suprised if the US gets much more than 100 units. That means supply is low, even only looking at the BMW fanbase. Which means that if there is just a little bit of demand, there is room for prices to go up. So again, simple economics.

Just because you feel you shouldn't pay more than MSRP doesn't mean dealers are killing the market. The market ALWAYS sets (and gets) the price it is willing to pay. If that is higher than you as an individual are willing to pay that's your personal choice, but if the market set the price out of your range, you are ***** out of luck.

Well thank goodness I'm not ***** out of luck. Mine will probally be one of the first available and like I said, I'm not paying over $25K for mine. I think I said the same thing you just stated, a few paragraphs ago but not over MSRP! I think that you still don't understand the entire concept. If you keep the price in the range for more to afford, you will sell more units, period. Hence the law of supply and demand! All the talk about the US only getting 100 units is not confirmed, it's just rag talk everyone knows this. BMW has not stated that they will only import 100 for the US marketf for 2008! The US is and will be the largest market for the motorcycle period and BMW already knows this. Being the largest market will definately allocate more production for the US then in Europe or anywhere else. So why would BMW possibly produce less for it's largest market and limit their profitability? What you've stated, doesn't make any sense, economically. It's not simply economics that your stating. They will produce as much as the market will stand and in the process make a sizeable profit. Why the heck would you only import 100 motorcycles for a market that would surely bear much more. A test?? Wouldn't make sense. You're going to produce the largest amount for the largest market. That is simple economics! Importation of one hundred units wouldn't even cover the R & D or production costs let alone the import tarriffs. No company will operate at that kind of loss to produce any product. What your saying is, the heck with a large profit from multiple sales. Just sell a few and jack up the price for less a profit. If BMW or any company operated like this, they'd be out of business and quickly. Your methodology just doesn't work.

Now, if you want to pay an over inflated price for a motorcycle that doesn't warrant the extra cost, be my guest. Over here in the States we generally let people know that it's not Kosher. Of course this is nothing more than euronomics at it's best. Everything in Europe is highly taxed and over inflated to pay for the multitude of social programs that must be supported. You don't have a free market and never have.

Cheers

Jeff

[EZ-RIDER]

I heard if BMW NA doesn't get 200 HP2S units into the country it wasn't come over !

[Guest24]

Originally Posted by EZ-RIDER

Hey Doc;

Isn't that what you said about the last three to four new BMW motorcycles!
Oh and if you don't like the riding position on the Ducati 1098 you won't like the
new Hp2 sport ! I don't see someone riding cross country on R1200S HP2

HP2 bar backs anyone. IK guess they need to stick the new engine in a GS for us old farts.

[EZ-RIDER]

Hey Bubba;

Got snow here in Atlanta area, your not far from me !

[Guest24]

Originally Posted by EZ-RIDER

Hey Bubba;

Got snow here in Atlanta area, your not far from me !

I live in the tropics below the gnat line man. The moon, sun and stars have to be in obtuse alignment for us to get that nasty stuff here. I worked in the Twin Cities in my last life and had my fill of that ugly white crap. It's an abomination to bikers every where. Two more months till summer.