Pilot "Whatever" tires on my HP2 Run out of front before running out of back!
 

Had a close call on the HP2 some weeks back on a blind corner that sloped off away from me as it tighten up. Went over very far (for me at least) and had the front tire start to skip shake as it started to let go. I released the steering input, came up slightly and she caught back hold..........just in time so I could still throw back down and make the corner.

Upon examination it was obvious that with the tires on the bike.........I was running out of front tire BEFORE I was running out of rear.

Shouldn't it ALWAYS be the other way around? Thank goodness BMW has come to their senses and NO MORE HP2 SPORTS will be shipped with those tires..........but with Metz RaceTecs instead. Saw a new HP2 (number 57) today that had been bent on over a little bit and the wear profile with the new RaceTecs Metzlers looked very good, especially when compared with the set of mis-matched tires that came on my early unit. I ordered a pair of the Racetecs today.......no more chance taking for me. Thoughts??

Hey Doc,

I used to have that problem on my Yamaha FZR 1000. I ran Pilot powers on it.

I chocked it up to hard braking and the fact that I like to ride right up on the tank, (loading the front tire). That bike had so much compression that down shifts had to be perfect or the rear tire would hop around like a kid with ADD.:eek: A slipper clutch would have been a great add on for that bike.

Running off the tread? or running out of traction? Might wanna check your suspension setting...


BTW that sounds like your pushing it a little too much for the street. How many guardian angels you got left ;)

...that's rater unusual, Jim... I usually get a 2:1 ratio out of the PP's... I am with bill on that one, suspension and maybe tire pressure at that given moment (i.e. big temp. and/or elevation changes) which can vary greatly...

I had the front give out on me 3 times a few weeks ago, turned out that the front had dropped to 24 PSI... I normally run 32 at temp.

Glad you were able to save it DrC.

It has been my observation that Metzeler puts tread further up the side than most other brands...it only makes sense to have some reserve "Chicken Strip" in hand versus using it up to the edge.

I'm not really concerned about "bragging types" seeing ~1/2" of unused tread on the sides of my tires...as you know the bragging stops when you leave them far behind.

I had Michelin Dual Sport Tires on my R100GS/PD and they put me in a near lowside twice before a riding buddy (also on a R100GS) pointed out his Metzelers had more tread up the sides...I made the switch to Metzeler and never looked back! Sicherheit Uber Alles!

You sure about that #?

Most rider reviews of the Pilot Power 2CT's on sporting bikes are rave. They are a popular tire for those who ride both street and track. Have an ex-racer friend who has them on his 1098. Have zero issues with the 2CT's on the HP2S, and this after some very spirited riding. As noted above, perhaps a suspension setting issue? Maybe a surface issue with the road at that moment/place that would affect any tire?

Pilot Powers
 

I've only ridden just over 1000 street miles so far on my HP2S, and only started to "push" during the last couple of rides, but so far, I am very satisfied with the handling and "stick" of the PP2CT's.
I'm very glad that I have not experienced any events such as the Dr had, or I would need to start riding wearing a diaper... :eek:

i am very happy with the PP2CT's, much more confidence inspiring that the M1's, and if i am interpreting your description right it sounds like an off-camber reducing radius turn, they don't get much tougher, and when you throw in the blind aspect its kind of freaky!

Assuming that proper tire pressure & suspension are in the “ballpark”, the excessive/unusual front tire wear could be caused by riding style. I had the same problem a few years back (regardless of tire mfg., type of tire or motorcycle). For me, excessive front tire wear was caused by my loading up the front to much going into/exiting turns, thus causing a V shaped wear on the front tire.

However, this was corrected by a friend of mine (seasoned canyon carver, rider extraordinary) who took the time to show me how to effectively ride fast/safe on the street/canyons. In short, when below approximately 100mph, I was to ride like I was riding a “flat track” bike, meaning sit up/use my stomach muscles to support me, particularly downhill where the tendency is to lean forward/too much pressure on the wrists. Anyway, after his careful supervision and then concentrating/using this technique, I had no more front tire wear issues. In fact, on my recent PP’s, which had 5000 miles on em (typically using 34-36 psi front & 38 to 41psi rear) the fronts looked like they were brand new, whereas the rears were uniformly worn from edge to edge. Anyway, hope this helps.

Mike K.
Gray/Silver 12S
Dana Point, CA

On my M3s i notice the opposite. The rear shows wear almost to the edge (0.5 cm or less chickenstrip), while the front shows at least 1 to 1.5 cm wide chickenstrip. I never ever brake while in the corner unless it's some kind of emergency, so it's probably your riding style. I'm talking street riding here ofc.

http://scts.323ci.net/forum/images/smiles/werd2.gif


I find the 2CT's to be the best tire (twisties performance-wise) that I've ever been on. (on the 11S, went from Z6, to Diablo Stradas, to M1 to Diablo Corsa...) Then again, I'm new to this 'sport' riding area.

Don't blame the tires....
 

Glad you saved it, but I'd say the tires helped you save it rather than being the problem. Sounds like a difficult corner that you went into too hot. The PP2CTs are great in my opinion and the opinion of many others and are not mismatched in any way for the HP2S. Much more likely to be a suspension setup or tire pressure issue or rider issue in a difficult situation. Thinking the M3s would have been better is mere speculation.

Doubt the tires were the issue here. LIke other guys said, I'd check pressure, technique, and suspension. Which strip is bigger, assuming you even have any, depends on a ton of tire, wheel, motorcycle, suspension, rider and technique issues. I've nearly as many cases of running out of front first, but it's still less common than the rear by a bit. Sounds like it's a tough corner. Though I don't track Michelins myself often these days, I've never had grip issues with them on a bike I'm testing. Theyre' quite grippy and forgiving.


The amount of profile wrap around is a total placebo / red-herring.
It tells you little, if anything about the contact patch. At the lean angle where that is accessed, the patch will be smaller and traction drops off nearly as quickly as when the wrap around doesn't exist.

Thanks for all the incisive comments from fellow brothers. I am sure it was my problem and not the bikes. The tires are another question however and for me a change to the RaceTec Metz is already in the works. The correct number on the bike I was examining yesterday was 58 not 57. I also noticed some other small changes as well. The electronic control box that mounts on the left front of the bike under the CF shell is now much more solidly mounted than on my number thirty-seven unit but I found one small flaw in the CF which mine does not have.........so things balance out.

I do get up on the tank so to speak and tend to load up the front.........so thanks for the tip about backing back down into the seat a bit and putting a little more weight on the rear. When one MEASURES the distance of sidewall to tread on the front of the Racetec and the Pilot it is obvious that the Metzler offers more rubber to be leaned over on before running out of tread than the Pilot does.............that in itself is enough for me to change over the tires now. No more HP2 units coming through with the Michelin Pilots however. Will compare feel when I install the new set of RaceTecs which will be coming soon. Thanks for the suggestions and I will take them and readjust my seating position.

> obvious that the Metzler offers more rubber to be leaned over on before running out of tread than the Pilot does.............

Again, it means nothing in and of itself. It might well have less ability at/near max lean, as that shape gives a generally smaller contact patch at that lean angle. As is often the case, a simple more-is-better mindset leads you in the wrong direction.

For street riders, that extra amount can make it go off a bit more progressively, but only in a limited number of scenarios.

You may be 100% right about this Roger...OTOH why would Metzeler spend the time, money, and effort to add tread when smooth sides would, and I'm speculating here, be less expensive to do. I'm thinking about the Tire Mold machining work, amount of extra Rubber needed for each tire, etc.

Secondly, as far as the German Mentality goes, for myself I'm hard pressed to think that they dabble in the "simple more-is-better mindset"...the level of education in Germany's workforce and their constant looking after the "Kleinigkeiten" (Details), Grundlich (Thoroughness), etc...makes me think they have very good arguments for the way the sidewall tread is laid out.

Or maybe I give them too much credit :confused:...and I admit to a heavy bias towards Metzelers.

Yes, too much credit. BMW buys tires in bulk. I've never seen them stick to one brand of tire thoughout a model year run. It's always about the money in mass production, to a large degree.

I switched to Michelins when I had my Rockster. Never could get it dialed in with the then new M3's that came stock. After getting the Ohlins dialed in the best I could I switched over to the Pilot Powers and they transformed the bike for my riding style. I prefer a more triangular profile tire it seems.

Nobody buys Metzler Racetec tires in bulk at BMW. I'm sure they get a better price than I do but bulk price for a tire thats only going on a few bikes seems poor reasoning for their choice. Whatever......I switching out the Pilots for the Racetec units and already feel better. The Pilots are fine tires and more than I can use............none the less......I can use more of what I have on the bike if I feel total confidence, and thats the bottom line for us all.

They do cost 220 more dollars to replace than the Pilots, wonder why?

Hey Doc,

You know that the Racetec is a DOT race tire instead of a street tire, right? There's no doubt in my mind that they cost a bunch more.

Same problem with the first set of Bridgestone 016.s. I asked two race instructors that I know well and my mechanic that I unfortunately know too well (due to another bike).

Consensus of opinions was the "damage" was due to much more aggressive riding on the R1200!

Plus a few days on the track.

Maybe a clue here somewhere?

Dave
in Berlin

My bad! I missed the segue from supersport street tires to race tires. In that case I would have recommended the Michelin PRC front/Power Race Medium combo for the HP2S. Much better and more expensive than the 2CTs as long as you don't plan to ride in the rain.

I wonder why BMW engineers chose to put such a cheap tire on these expensive thoroughbreds?

One has to keep the lavish German Government Social System funded...and the Dollar is worthless!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1219003957.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1219003978.jpg

Dr.C,

the CT2's not one of my favorite tires. Its a very good tire for most riding, but not the type of roads i ride. I've had the front slide on me multiple times. Lowering the air pressure, adjusting the suspension, and increasing the length of the shock 5mm. They just don't give me a warm fuzzy feeling and inspire me in a corner. Try the DIABLO ROSSO
jeff

Like the sheepskin seat pad?

Jeff, two people E'ed me offline about the Diablo units and suggested that they will not be sliding under the conditions I described. I was back out today. Pressures were right, pavement dry and smooth, tight neutral camber corners, ect. I JUST don't feel these tires should be on this bike. The feel is simply not as inspiring as the M Three units that Metz offers so I KNOW the Racetec units will be much better. Thanks for the suggestions and I may well go to some high ticket Diablos in time. Thanks for the tip Jeff. Have any of you actually had experience with the Racetec Metzlers? I have not.

Only on a borrowed ZX6R, moderately built.
They slid around too much for me, but for casual use, they should be fine.
MOst tires are fine for the street. It's really whatever feels right to you, even if the tire is not quite as capable (not saying it's not here, just speaking gtenerally) If you don't have a good feel, you'lll be slow no matter what. This is a "if it feels good, do-it/use-it scenario.

Anytire can help or hose you. I have 3 near high-sides in the last two days, trying to run with the lead instructor at our school (which it turns out, I still can't do, not surprisingly)
I love the 002s, but if you push a tire too hard, any tire anywhere can bite you.
Never went down, but my butt sure left the seat and I'm ready to ice a shoulder down.

Good luck and safe riding with the new Metzs.

Most bike wounds are self inflicted.

Dr.C
Not in two years, they may have changed the compounds, the Racetec needed a high temp to work and only lasted a short amount of heat cycles and then felt 'spotty',(hook,slide,hook,slide).But they looked nice when big balls of rubber dangled off the side of the tire.
I know a lot of people like the bridgestones and don't like the pirelli's because of the shape of each tire. The Bridgestones are rounded and the pirellis,(like the Metz), are Triangular. For the last 2years I've been running the Pirelli Super corsa dragons and all their different name changes. Botton its their dot race tire. I got 2300 miles on the rear and 3500miles on the front. I'm putting on this tire next week to finish up my suspension on the hp2,(gives me a base), then I'll try the rosso.
hope this helps,
jeff
ps I just got back from riding a 08 GXR1000, my bike set up with the shock lengthened turns so so much faster. For fun we did a roll on with an 02 Gxr1000, side by side to 110 then i shut down. fun stuff

Aren't the Diablos just Metzelers in disguise, or vice versa?

Mike

Tire pressures, heat requirements, heat cycles. I'm not convinced that a race tire is appropriate for street use. Sure you can do it, but i don't think you are really going to get the extra "grippiness" you think you are.

I actually think it is the new trend in tires, and tire design. I have been running M3 Metzlers for 3 years now, and the front and rear wear are very close to even. If it is just street, no track days, front wears a little faster than the rear. The M1's and Diablos I ran prior, I could get 1 1/2 rear/front ratio.

Yeskino. What do you think about the drift toward "higher tires" as evidenced by the new 190 - 180/60 tires as compared to the popular 190- 180/50 or 55 ratios? Think we will see more air again between the tread and the rim? Thoughts from other brothers?

Have not noticed the taller profile tires. It would make it hard to fit the tire warmers between the hugger/fender.

Doc,
some of the new tires,rosso's, suggest a higher pressure than the ones we have used in the past few years.

Jim,
where we ride is a race track :)
Seriously, we have a quick group of riders and use all types of tires. Of the race tires for the street the pirellis are the best. But do i need them for the street, no. When i find a better,(which looks to be the rosso), I'll use it. Until then my skin is worth the extra few pennies per mile i pay for the Confidence in these tires.
But everyone is different, where we ride is different, that is what makes things fun:):)
jeff

My question is whether or not your confidence is misplaced. From what (little) I know about race tires, it is a little difficult to get them up to operating temperature on the street. If by chance you are able to get them up to temp, you will heat-cycle the life out of them after a day or two of riding, assuming you're not throwing tire warmers on them every time you stop for coffee.

I found the PP to be a good tire for the street and moderate-speed (knee dragging) track days. I thought the Corsa III was a little better. Fresh race tires on the track are even better. I found clapped out race tires to be downright dangerous.

That said, everyone is colored by their own experience. If you like the race tires on the street, have a ball.

BTW, you may want to check out the BT-002RS (not the BT-002). It is the hot new tire amongst the sportbike kids on the internet.

Jim is right on both the poor grip of race tires at street temps, and of the short life due to heat cycling. On the street, no matter what you might think you feel, the race tires will have _less_ grip.

If you are going that fast on the street and you now feel you need race tires to keep grip, you are simply riding too fast on the street. And Jeff, your back yard may be a 'track', but help is what, 30 minutes.... 45? an hour away?

A track has corner workers, w/ radios and an ambulance is at most 2 minutes away. Save the über high performance riding for the place that deems it.

Conversely, I used tire warmers for the first time, this past weekend at Calabogie Raceway, in spite of the relatively cool temps (70's), I found that after 3 or 4 laps the M3's started to get a little greasy because they were too hot. I backed down the warmer temps some, and the problem went away.

Nothing like feeling a 500+ lbs bike scooting sideways at 120 MPH to wake you up. :eek:

If they got greasy afater 3 or 4 laps, then the pressure wasn't just right.
The warmers play a large role in initial temp, but very little several laps in.
Warmers vs no warmers had just been masking a poor setup, and started again
after you dropped the temp.

Agree with Roger. Alot of these complaints about tires are really issues with incorrect suspension setup, tire pressure issues, etc. I understand people have their favorite tires, but any of the best street-sport tires are better than just about anyone who rides them on the street. The thought that alot of you guys are outriding your tires on the street is just not believeable. That's not a knock on your skills and no offense to anyone.