Pilot "Whatever" tires on my HP2 Run out of front before running out of back!

[Dr. Curve]

Had a close call on the HP2 some weeks back on a blind corner that sloped off away from me as it tighten up. Went over very far (for me at least) and had the front tire start to skip shake as it started to let go. I released the steering input, came up slightly and she caught back hold..........just in time so I could still throw back down and make the corner.

Upon examination it was obvious that with the tires on the bike.........I was running out of front tire BEFORE I was running out of rear.

Shouldn't it ALWAYS be the other way around? Thank goodness BMW has come to their senses and NO MORE HP2 SPORTS will be shipped with those tires..........but with Metz RaceTecs instead. Saw a new HP2 (number 57) today that had been bent on over a little bit and the wear profile with the new RaceTecs Metzlers looked very good, especially when compared with the set of mis-matched tires that came on my early unit. I ordered a pair of the Racetecs today.......no more chance taking for me. Thoughts??

[bill pierce]

Hey Doc,

I used to have that problem on my Yamaha FZR 1000. I ran Pilot powers on it.

I chocked it up to hard braking and the fact that I like to ride right up on the tank, (loading the front tire). That bike had so much compression that down shifts had to be perfect or the rear tire would hop around like a kid with ADD. A slipper clutch would have been a great add on for that bike.

[wswartzwel]

Running off the tread? or running out of traction? Might wanna check your suspension setting...


BTW that sounds like your pushing it a little too much for the street. How many guardian angels you got left

[signit98]

...that's rater unusual, Jim... I usually get a 2:1 ratio out of the PP's... I am with bill on that one, suspension and maybe tire pressure at that given moment (i.e. big temp. and/or elevation changes) which can vary greatly...

I had the front give out on me 3 times a few weeks ago, turned out that the front had dropped to 24 PSI... I normally run 32 at temp.

[R111S]

Glad you were able to save it DrC.

It has been my observation that Metzeler puts tread further up the side than most other brands...it only makes sense to have some reserve "Chicken Strip" in hand versus using it up to the edge.

I'm not really concerned about "bragging types" seeing ~1/2" of unused tread on the sides of my tires...as you know the bragging stops when you leave them far behind.

I had Michelin Dual Sport Tires on my R100GS/PD and they put me in a near lowside twice before a riding buddy (also on a R100GS) pointed out his Metzelers had more tread up the sides...I made the switch to Metzeler and never looked back! Sicherheit Uber Alles!

[SergioK]

Originally Posted by Dr. Curve

Saw a new HP2 (number 57) today...

You sure about that #?

[sfarson]

Most rider reviews of the Pilot Power 2CT's on sporting bikes are rave. They are a popular tire for those who ride both street and track. Have an ex-racer friend who has them on his 1098. Have zero issues with the 2CT's on the HP2S, and this after some very spirited riding. As noted above, perhaps a suspension setting issue? Maybe a surface issue with the road at that moment/place that would affect any tire?

[snakepilot]

I've only ridden just over 1000 street miles so far on my HP2S, and only started to "push" during the last couple of rides, but so far, I am very satisfied with the handling and "stick" of the PP2CT's.
I'm very glad that I have not experienced any events such as the Dr had, or I would need to start riding wearing a diaper...

[shreddr]

i am very happy with the PP2CT's, much more confidence inspiring that the M1's, and if i am interpreting your description right it sounds like an off-camber reducing radius turn, they don't get much tougher, and when you throw in the blind aspect its kind of freaky!

[mkletecka]

Assuming that proper tire pressure & suspension are in the “ballpark”, the excessive/unusual front tire wear could be caused by riding style. I had the same problem a few years back (regardless of tire mfg., type of tire or motorcycle). For me, excessive front tire wear was caused by my loading up the front to much going into/exiting turns, thus causing a V shaped wear on the front tire.

However, this was corrected by a friend of mine (seasoned canyon carver, rider extraordinary) who took the time to show me how to effectively ride fast/safe on the street/canyons. In short, when below approximately 100mph, I was to ride like I was riding a “flat track” bike, meaning sit up/use my stomach muscles to support me, particularly downhill where the tendency is to lean forward/too much pressure on the wrists. Anyway, after his careful supervision and then concentrating/using this technique, I had no more front tire wear issues. In fact, on my recent PP’s, which had 5000 miles on em (typically using 34-36 psi front & 38 to 41psi rear) the fronts looked like they were brand new, whereas the rears were uniformly worn from edge to edge. Anyway, hope this helps.

Mike K.
Gray/Silver 12S
Dana Point, CA

[Fenring]

On my M3s i notice the opposite. The rear shows wear almost to the edge (0.5 cm or less chickenstrip), while the front shows at least 1 to 1.5 cm wide chickenstrip. I never ever brake while in the corner unless it's some kind of emergency, so it's probably your riding style. I'm talking street riding here ofc.

[SergioK]

Originally Posted by snakepilot

I've only ridden just over 1000 street miles so far on my HP2S, and only started to "push" during the last couple of rides, but so far, I am very satisfied with the handling and "stick" of the PP2CT's.

I find the 2CT's to be the best tire (twisties performance-wise) that I've ever been on. (on the 11S, went from Z6, to Diablo Stradas, to M1 to Diablo Corsa...) Then again, I'm new to this 'sport' riding area.

[motodoc]

Glad you saved it, but I'd say the tires helped you save it rather than being the problem. Sounds like a difficult corner that you went into too hot. The PP2CTs are great in my opinion and the opinion of many others and are not mismatched in any way for the HP2S. Much more likely to be a suspension setup or tire pressure issue or rider issue in a difficult situation. Thinking the M3s would have been better is mere speculation.

[roger albert]

Doubt the tires were the issue here. LIke other guys said, I'd check pressure, technique, and suspension. Which strip is bigger, assuming you even have any, depends on a ton of tire, wheel, motorcycle, suspension, rider and technique issues. I've nearly as many cases of running out of front first, but it's still less common than the rear by a bit. Sounds like it's a tough corner. Though I don't track Michelins myself often these days, I've never had grip issues with them on a bike I'm testing. Theyre' quite grippy and forgiving.


The amount of profile wrap around is a total placebo / red-herring.
It tells you little, if anything about the contact patch. At the lean angle where that is accessed, the patch will be smaller and traction drops off nearly as quickly as when the wrap around doesn't exist.

[Dr. Curve]

Thanks for all the incisive comments from fellow brothers. I am sure it was my problem and not the bikes. The tires are another question however and for me a change to the RaceTec Metz is already in the works. The correct number on the bike I was examining yesterday was 58 not 57. I also noticed some other small changes as well. The electronic control box that mounts on the left front of the bike under the CF shell is now much more solidly mounted than on my number thirty-seven unit but I found one small flaw in the CF which mine does not have.........so things balance out.

I do get up on the tank so to speak and tend to load up the front.........so thanks for the tip about backing back down into the seat a bit and putting a little more weight on the rear. When one MEASURES the distance of sidewall to tread on the front of the Racetec and the Pilot it is obvious that the Metzler offers more rubber to be leaned over on before running out of tread than the Pilot does.............that in itself is enough for me to change over the tires now. No more HP2 units coming through with the Michelin Pilots however. Will compare feel when I install the new set of RaceTecs which will be coming soon. Thanks for the suggestions and I will take them and readjust my seating position.

[roger albert]

> obvious that the Metzler offers more rubber to be leaned over on before running out of tread than the Pilot does.............

Again, it means nothing in and of itself. It might well have less ability at/near max lean, as that shape gives a generally smaller contact patch at that lean angle. As is often the case, a simple more-is-better mindset leads you in the wrong direction.

For street riders, that extra amount can make it go off a bit more progressively, but only in a limited number of scenarios.

[R111S]

Originally Posted by roger albert

> obvious that the Metzler offers more rubber to be leaned over on before running out of tread than the Pilot does.............

Again, it means nothing in and of itself. It might well have less ability at/near max lean, as that shape gives a generally smaller contact patch at that lean angle. As is often the case, a simple more-is-better mindset leads you in the wrong direction.

For street riders, that extra amount can make it go off a bit more progressively, but only in a limited number of scenarios.

You may be 100% right about this Roger...OTOH why would Metzeler spend the time, money, and effort to add tread when smooth sides would, and I'm speculating here, be less expensive to do. I'm thinking about the Tire Mold machining work, amount of extra Rubber needed for each tire, etc.

Secondly, as far as the German Mentality goes, for myself I'm hard pressed to think that they dabble in the "simple more-is-better mindset"...the level of education in Germany's workforce and their constant looking after the "Kleinigkeiten" (Details), Grundlich (Thoroughness), etc...makes me think they have very good arguments for the way the sidewall tread is laid out.

Or maybe I give them too much credit ...and I admit to a heavy bias towards Metzelers.

[mfbRSV]

Originally Posted by R111S

...Secondly, as far as the German Mentality goes, for myself I'm hard pressed to think that they dabble in the "simple more-is-better mindset"...the level of education in Germany's workforce and their constant looking after the "Kleinigkeiten" (Details), Grundlich (Thoroughness), etc...makes me think they have very good arguments for the way the sidewall tread is laid out.

Or maybe I give them too much credit ...and I admit to a heavy bias towards Metzelers.

Yes, too much credit. BMW buys tires in bulk. I've never seen them stick to one brand of tire thoughout a model year run. It's always about the money in mass production, to a large degree.

I switched to Michelins when I had my Rockster. Never could get it dialed in with the then new M3's that came stock. After getting the Ohlins dialed in the best I could I switched over to the Pilot Powers and they transformed the bike for my riding style. I prefer a more triangular profile tire it seems.

[Dr. Curve]

Nobody buys Metzler Racetec tires in bulk at BMW. I'm sure they get a better price than I do but bulk price for a tire thats only going on a few bikes seems poor reasoning for their choice. Whatever......I switching out the Pilots for the Racetec units and already feel better. The Pilots are fine tires and more than I can use............none the less......I can use more of what I have on the bike if I feel total confidence, and thats the bottom line for us all.

They do cost 220 more dollars to replace than the Pilots, wonder why?

[JimMoore]

Hey Doc,

You know that the Racetec is a DOT race tire instead of a street tire, right? There's no doubt in my mind that they cost a bunch more.