Modified A-arm HP2s vs std HP2s vs RC8r vs 1198s

Joe the Viking · 05-27-2009, 01:32 AM

Ok, so this weekend I had a chance to try out my A-arm mod back to back with a stock HP2s on track. On a side note I also tried the RC8r, 1198s and a couple of inline fours that were at the School as part of a test for a Swedish bike mag. More on that later.

Tires for this test were the stock K3s, thankfully it didn't rain. Much.
The suspension was set roughly the same on both bikes and both had their rears raised as much as possible by the adjustable shock length. Since my bike is higher than stock up front it sits pretty level in comparison with the stock bikes more forward tilting position.

First impression was that I felt quite at home on the stock bike, it was nice and predictible and felt very settled. As the tires warmed up and I pushed it a bit it was clear that my bike turns in just a little better, is a little easier to make minor corrections with mid turn and is quite a lot better at changing direction quickly through esses. My bike just feels a little bit sharper than the stocker.
Stability wise both were stable enough not to come close to doing anything unsettling even if my bike does move around a little more over rough patches.

I'm still very happy with my mod but I am looking at lowering front and rear to drop CG a hair.

btw, I got another coach to try both HP2s back to back and he thought mine felt more "together" and easier to turn. He had no idea what I had done to it.

As far as the other bikes go I didn't get a very long ride on the RC8r BUT: It had a bit more power than the HP2 up top and ran a little rougher. It felt very short with a high CG and that's not my cup of tea. Turning in felt almost like it wanted to fall to the inside, it was quick but not very assuring. Stiff and strange suspension meant it didn't hold it's line that well. I actually like the regular RC8 better but that may change if I get the suspension set up correctly.

The first thing that strikes you about the 1198S is that it's got SERIOUS power and I mean SERIOUS!
This thing just hauls ass like no other twin I've ever seen, the downside to this engine is that above 7000rpm the vibrations are so bad the world turns into a blur of colors rushing past you. Maybe there was something wrong with this particular bike because I'm not that sensitive and there's no way I could live with those vibrations even on track.
Other than the extreme engine the bike did what was expected: turned very well, had excellent brakes, a slightly stiff suspension and too narrow a tank. Footpeg/seat/bars had a very nice, comfortable ratio for a Duc even though the rear of the seat has that strange, uncomfortable bucket shape.

All in all I'm very happy with my HP2s, it's a high performance twin I can actually live with and it has no real weak points when it comes to ergonomics or handling. It does however need more power so hopefully there'll be an interesting thread on that subject this winter...

peter f · 05-28-2009, 07:28 AM

Interesting quick review.

I'm on my way (provided that I could find someone willing to buy my R12S - not an easy thing in Greece) for the real McCoy: 1198S. This thing retails for exactly the same money as the HP2S (24K euros).

RC8 Tested as well...it's a bit "nervous" but this exactly is the attraction point. Fantastic design but...awful fueling (normal on-the-road riding) and questionable gearbox and overall build quality- mind.

PS: in fact the bike that I should buy is a 09 Blade (perfection on wheels)...but blame my passion with spaghetti Bolognese.

Joe the Viking · 05-29-2009, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter f

Interesting quick review.

I'm on my way (provided that I could find someone willing to buy my R12S - not an easy thing in Greece) for the real McCoy: 1198S. This thing retails for exactly the same money as the HP2S (24K euros).
PS: in fact the bike that I should buy is a 09 Blade (perfection on wheels)...but blame my passion with spaghetti Bolognese.

I tried the Blade as well but as I don't really care for inline fours there's no point in me comparing it to the others. One thing I can say is that I didn't like the combined braking system. ABS-function was good though.

Have you actually tried the 1198S?
What did you think of the vibrations?

The 1198S does retail for the same money but will probably not hold its value as "well" and for me the insurance would be about 2000euros more /year. No duck for me

peter f · 05-29-2009, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe the Viking

Have you actually tried the 1198S?
What did you think of the vibrations?

The 1198S does retail for the same money but will probably not hold its value as "well" and for me the insurance would be about 2000euros more /year. No duck for me

I have an old friend who's in the racing/tuning business (with Yamaha) but he's prosperous enough...imagine any wild bike...he has it. This is a rather great opportunity for me for obvious reasons > making a quick test ride and riding the thing for, say, 500+ miles...it's NOT the same thing.

Vibrations then. Well...the thing is a wild Duc what do you expect? In fact they are not that bad (maybe your bike had some fueling problem and/or some unbalanced butterflies?). But measuring the 1198S with "austere facts and figures"...it's a target missed by some miles...try to catch the aura, the soul, that heritage, the incredible beauty, the RED, that man Carl (and Troy) living inside. It's not a machine...it's Statement (or a message board, so to speak).

With regard the HP2S (fine bike, mind) don't tell to anyone...but I've lost faith to the boxer (for sport usage, that is). My R12S developed so many issues here in Greece (and lot's of other R12 series bikes as well) ...dare I say...er...never again.

OwenM · 06-01-2009, 06:06 AM

I recently did a back to back test ride of the 1098 and the 1198S (both with 1400km on them, so they where run in enough) and I have to say I was rather impressed. Both bikes where ridden over the same roads at the same speeds for about 30 minutes each. Not a full evaluation by any measure but enough to give me some idea of what they had to offer.
First out was the 1098, wow what a great engine, throttle response is immediate and power delivery ferocious at almost any rpm. It’s happy to trickle along at 3000rpm or less with no complaints and is happy in low speed traffic, which was most unexpected (my R1200S is a pig in the same conditions). Open the throttle with 4000 plus on board and the Duc is a savage beast with awe inspiring acceleration and a sound that only a Ducati can make, truly intoxicating and great fun.
I found the engine remarkably smooth at low to middling rpm, and not a problem at high rpm either, as smooth or smoother then any big twin I have ridden and way better then the Ducati ST3 a tested before purchasing the R12S.

The gearbox is precise and vice free, its just works as you would expect it to.

All the controls worked well and I find the conventional turn signal switch on the Duc way better then the stupid BMW system, even after 18 months of BMW ownership.

Brakes are very powerful without being overly sensitive (another surprise) and hard stopping is accompanied by lots of dive, not a problem I am just used to the Telelever.

Brake feel was also very reassuring.

Before the test ride I contacted my local suspension expert to see what could be done to make a Duc more friendly for real roads rather then a race track and he assured me both the Showa and Ohlins could be retuned as required. Ride on this Showa suspended bike was surprisingly supple, I don’t know how it was set up but it was definitely not hard or harsh (another surprise).

Handling seemed good although the roads where not challenging and speeds generally modest. Steering and turn in where a little slow, much like a standard R12S. I have raised the rear of my R12S and the steering improved immensely, I expect the Duc should respond in a similar fashion.
The bike feels narrow and light, with a lower centre of gravity then the beamer, the seat is remarkably low as well. I liked the way I could grip the tank with my thighs and rest my stomach on the tank for a very secure riding position. The bars are low but I found I could tighten my abdominals and lift my hands off the bars with relative ease, excellent for keeping weight of the bars during braking and cornering as well as good for giving the wrists a break when cruising. I can’t do that on the R12S, and my wrists suffer because of it.
Sitting on the 1098 as rest I expected my wrists and butt would be complaining after a half hour ride, but that was not the case at all. Obviously a much longer ride would be required to get the story on longer term comfort, but the Duc was no where near the horror I was expecting, which is a great relief or a problem depending on how you look at things. Had the Duc been terribly uncomfortable I would have dismissed it, but now that I know its not I am VERY temped.

The big brother 1198S.

First thing I noticed about this particular 1198 was its poor fuelling at low rpm, it did not run cleanly down low like the 1098. The next thing of note was the horrifically savage throttle response. Coming off a closed throttle was VERY sudden and great care needed to be exercised powering out of low speed corners. I did not find this fun at all, in fact I recon it’s down right dangerous and put it me of buying the 1198. No doubt one would get used to the touchy throttle over time but it would still be way too easy to have a momentary laps in concentration resulting in a nasty incident or crash.
I have to give BMW their due, throttle response on the R12S may feel soft and not so sporty, but it’s VERY smooth and user friendly, you would have to be stupid to get your self in serious trouble on the Beamer, not so the 1198.
Once on the power the 1198 feels much like the 1098, there is a little more go but not a significant amount. There also appeared to be more vibration, but it was not bad by any means, even when over 7000 rpm.

If these bikes are indicative of the bread, the 1098 strikes me as the better motor, with smoother power delivery and less vibrations, attributes I find more attractive then 10 extra HP. The 160HP and 171kg -377lbs (dry) of the 1098 is plenty for this little black duck; it’s a bloody rocket ship on wheels, seriously fast and seriously fun.

The Ohlins suspension on the 1198S was noticeably stiffer then the Showa suspended bike, too stiff for my liking but again I don’t know how either was set up. There should be enough adjustment to get a good ride handling compromise but I won’t know for sure unless I buy one and spend the time to set it up properly. I figure if I’m going to buy a Ducati it may as well be the S with Ohlins and light weight forged wheels (like the HP2S).

The bikes I rode had standard exhaust systems which are relatively quite, no ear plugs required. Most people seem to go for the optional open carbon slip on cans, better air filter and matching ECU module that come as a kit, a nice simple factory setup that apparently works well and turns a deep grumble into a thunderous roar.
If I’m going with a Ducati I wont “the sound”, there is none better on this planet as far as I am concerned, a flat twin BMW does not even come close.

It’s not all good news with the Duc, what others have said about the mirrors is all true; they are completely useless and may as well not be there. The mirror extenders fitted to the 1198 are supposed to help but I did not notice a significant improvement. Bar end mirrors seem like the only workable option for rear vision.
The farkly digital LCD instrument cluster (like the HP2S) is also a waste of f#$*ing space, the tachometer is basically unreadable and the rest of the indications are not much better. I’ll take the clear and functional setup of the R12S in preference in a hart beat.

The Duc is not a hot weather bike, the seat gets very warm after a short time, even in cool weather, after a long ride on a hot day it would be a real problem.

Overall build quality is good but not quite up to the standard of the R1200S IMHO.

The Duc will no doubt be relatively expensive to service and maintain, but there is no major engine tear down required like the HP2S, the prices quoted seemed reasonable.

Insurance cost is double that of the R1200S, but its still very reasonable due to my age. $1100AU per year or about $860US.

On the subject of BMW’s, the dealer who loaned me the Ducatis also sells BMW, they have a HP2S sitting on the floor that is destined to be a press bike. After the local motorcycling press have run it in (thrashed the living daylights out of it), they said it should be available for test rides. So I may get to ride a HP2S without having to buy one.

A ride on the HP2S may sway me away from a 1098S but I seriously doubt it, there is fire in the belly of that Duc and I feel the heat.

If I buy a 1098 I will still keep the R12S, they can cohabitate until I work out if the Ducati is a terrible mistake or not.

Bigred455 · 06-01-2009, 08:38 AM

Joe, I'm surprised this post did not show more interest than it has. Thanks for your report! I'm not sure I want to modify my a-arm yet, but still aprreciate the feedback!

peter f · 06-01-2009, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OwenM

The Duc will no doubt be relatively expensive to service and maintain, but there is no major engine tear down required like the HP2S, the prices quoted seemed reasonable.

If I buy a 1098 I will still keep the R12S, they can cohabitate until I work out if the Ducati is a terrible mistake or not.

1. Case 1098 (2nd hand?) > make sure that cam "belt" tensioners (pulleys) ARE replaced (recall)...otherwise walk away - ASAP. Of course full service history etc etc etc.

2. Case all > replace belts at half the recommended time/mileage

3. Case 1198S > DTC (8 settings) : maybe for this you should buy the new bike (power increase is a nothing thing). I know that Big Brother stuff in not a good thing....but in this case...maybe it is.

OwenM · 06-01-2009, 04:16 PM

Thanks for the heads up Peter, the 1098 is still available new here and there are plenty of used ones in as new condition with well under 2000km.
It seems this is a trophy sort of bike; people buy them, cover them in expensive carbon parts and never get around to riding them. When it’s time for the first service it’s time to look for a new one, or so it seems. It’s unusual to see a used example that has travelled far enough to need its second service. There is a 1098R for sale with 200km (125 miles) on it.

The traction control on the 1198 may be of some value, but I could not live with that nasty throttle response.

peter f · 06-01-2009, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OwenM

Thanks for the heads up Peter, the 1098 is still available new here and there are plenty of used ones in as new condition with well under 2000km.
It seems this is a trophy sort of bike; people buy them, cover them in expensive carbon parts and never get around to riding them. When it’s time for the first service it’s time to look for a new one, or so it seems. It’s unusual to see a used example that has travelled far enough to need its second service. There is a 1098R for sale with 200km (125 miles) on it.

The traction control on the 1198 may be of some value, but I could not live with that nasty throttle response.

Regardless of mileage these cam belt pulleys MUST be the new ones (originals deform badly because are made - in Timbuktu - with some cheapo plastic ). A friend destroyed completely his 1098 head (desmo + an "uncooperative" belt = Hello bank manager...).

Pistons in R travel dangerously close to what is "safe" : ~ 24m/sec. If I was you...

DTC for mere mortals (yours truly) appears to be the difference between live and death (especially on wet, if name's not Ben, Nitro et all).

But in any case > get one...sooooo desirable...like Eva Herzigova on wheels.

snakepilot · 06-02-2009, 05:10 AM

Or you can buy an HP2S and with ~130HP have no need for no stinking traction control.

OwenM, I have a friend with an 1198S. He originally had the fueling problem, until he took it for the initial service and had the dealer install the Termis and different map, which comes standard with the Termis in the US. I have ridden the bike and it has a great throttle response at all RPM's. It does seem to have a bit more vibration than I recall on previous Ducati twins, but I did not find it objectionable.

Joe the Viking,
I have enjoyed reading your reports. Looking forward to more.

John M.

peter f · 06-02-2009, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snakepilot

Or you can buy an HP2S and with ~130HP have no need for no stinking traction control. :

Αpples to apples (rear wheel) he are talking 116 VS 152 (100% TPS) and...some chaotic differences in 20, 40, 60 % TPS - where 99.99% or real people ride (in real life).

But ponies are only a small part of the whole.

snakepilot · 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter f

But ponies are only a small part of the whole.

I totally agree. And that's the reason why, although I have enjoyed owning several Ducatis in the past, I am very happy with the overall performance/ dynamics of my HP2S.

BTW Peter, I agree with you regarding too many reliability issues have arisen with BMW's of recent vintage. And not just limited to the Boxer models.

peter f · 06-02-2009, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snakepilot

BTW Peter, I agree with you regarding too many reliability issues have arisen with BMW's of recent vintage. And not limited to Boxer models.

Er...this is the catch here. I mean...I've lost faith...completely (count my ex K12R as well, that developed more issues than Madonna has bodyguards - sold in 3 months, the bike not Madonna).

Joe the Viking · 06-02-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigred455

Joe, I'm surprised this post did not show more interest than it has. Thanks for your report! I'm not sure I want to modify my a-arm yet, but still aprreciate the feedback!

I'm not sure you should modify your A-arm either, for anything other than frequent track use or for someone who likes doing mods for their own sake jacking up the rear as far as is allowed is surely good enough.

What I WOULD advice is to try the bike without the steering damper (under safe circumstances) and see if that floats your boat. The stocker is really stiff and the bike plenty stable without it.
If you do like the differance concider getting an adjustable unit as you may not want to run without a damper. I've got my Öhins set to less than half the drag of the stocker.

Guest24 · 06-03-2009, 04:53 AM

Very good report on the HP2S, Joe. I still tink that BMW should have made a demo bike available to the seasoned sport riders. The bike if awesome to street ride and fun at the track. Yes the bling is pricey; but, it is functional also. I'm always happy after a spirited ride. Bottom line is "Don't bust on the HP2S if you haven't experienced the ride." It's more than adequate for even the most advanced driver. BTW I was talking with the proud new owner of a H-D Screaming Eagle Road Glide or whatever it was. The price $33,000.00!!!!! I price of the HP2S didn't seem so bad in comparison to a blinged up noisey boat anchor.