Clacky clack sound. Clutch? If not, what?
 

Hey guys. Miles have been catching up to me. Hit 111,111 a few weeks ago and since then it's been a turn for the worse. Fragged a final drive that I scored on Ebay 30K+ miles ago that I was going to put on the other bike and was bench testing. So much for that one, back to the stocker.

This last weekend I returned from a ride with a clacking sound which seems to be the clutch. At idle and in neutral, there's a louder sound from what I believe is the dry clutch because it goes away when you pull the clutch lever in. No noise when under acceleration or maintaining speed, but it returns on decelleration. When in gear and coming to a stop, the clacks slow with the bike. Cramming on the brakes from 20mph down to zero will create a slowing procession of clacking. Like the deceleration forces cause whatever is rattling to clatter more. It's rhythmic and not a sporadic noise. As the bike slows, it slows. It's definitely between the driveshaft and the engine. Coasting in neutral and revving the engine does not change the clatter, so it's not the engine or the flywheel side of the clutch.

I don't feel any difference in the clutch engagement and it will still pop wheelies as it always has. No slipping detected and no odd over-gripping of the clutch.

Could this have something to do with the starter engagement mechanism?

Anyone know why this would happen? Is it simply loose rivets on the clutch disc?

I fortunately have a spare pressure plate and clutch disc, but I just lack time to split the bike this week. The temps are dropping and my garage space is minimal. Not looking forward to dealing with this. Might actually have to pause on riding for a week.

It doesn't sound like the driveshaft, but it is easy enough to put it on the centerstand and spin the rear wheel. Like me! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/505820-driveshaft-explosion-almost.html

Nope, Jim, but your thread was inspiration for me actually asking about it. You REALLY lucked out. The clack happens with the bike in neutral and sitting still. I'm taking it out for a spin. Hopefully it doesn't blow the clutch.

So it's not the components that are connected to the rear of the Crank but it is the components connected to the Trasmission? Have you studied the Parts Fische to see just what those components could be?

And "still pop wheelies as it always has"???...I got cured of that on my Airhead after I ruined the Output Shaft Bearing the 3rd time...trans work is so expensive :^(

I got a "can of marbles" sound like this...
 

Did a nice ~1500 mile 5-day ride to Missouri and Arkansas last week and on the way home heard a "can of marbles" sound coming from the transmission similar like Sideshiow_S describes here.

Oh just have to interrupt the flow so here's a vid still pic from AR Rt.341:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1286043362.jpg

Anyway, we'd taken a break for lunch in Litchfield, IL and as I started up my trusty '99 R1100S w/~70K Miles on it I heard this awful "can of marbles" sound. The transmission worked fine up to then and continued to work fine for the remaining ~120 Miles ride home via the Slab. Could it be the Clutch is on it's last legs?

Symptoms:

1. The "can of marbles" sound is present when stationary, in neutral, and clutch lever released.

2. The "can of marbles" sound is NOT present when stationary, in neutral, and clutch lever pulled in.

3. Set it on the center stand and put it in 1st gear and added some throttle - "can of marbles" sound is present.

4. Still on the center stand and put it in 2st gear and added some throttle - "can of marbles" sound is present.

5. Still on the center stand and put it in 2st gear and added some throttle - "can of marbles" sound is present during accel/decel but goes away as soon as the Clutch Lever is pulled in.

Hmmmm...maybe it's not the Clutch...

I'm thinking Transmission Oil moisture contamination now so I open the Transmission fill Port and have a look with a bright flashlight. Lots of tiny bubbles and a lite muddy green look to the oil. Not good so I drain it all out - talk about milky green slime!!!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1286042963.jpg

And here's the Drain Plug with metalic filings on the magnet:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1286043038.jpg

And here's the brand of Transmission Oil I use that was put in 4948 miles ago:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1286043132.jpg

I'm going to re-fill the Transmission with new Gear Oil and see if the "can of marbles" sound goes away...hopefully. Just letting it drain real well right now so that all the green slime drains out thoroughly.

something tells me that oil is aerated because of whatever is causing the "can of marbles" i hate to be negative, but don't count on a change of oil to fix your problem

??

oh....you're welcome. dang aliens

I have noticed the same noise on my 2004 S with 31k on the clock. It occurs when I start the bike cold in neutral. If I pump the cluch lever a few times, it goes away.

It leads me to believe that maybe the cluch needs to be bled to tighten up the fluid columm a bit.

The plot thickens...

At first I thought maybe the Transmission Vent had failed and allowed moisture into the Transmission and thus contaminating the Oil – but ~2 hours later I observed the drained out Oil had no bubbles in it and looked like new. This Spectro Hypoid Gear Lubricant GL-5 SAE 80w 90 Oil had been poured in last Spring. I had some more of this Oil and so refilled the Transmission to see if the noise would stop – it didn’t. I even went for a ride to see if I could get the moisture to boil off.

I then decided to drain the Oil and refill it again with new oil ~40 miles later. I put in Bel-Ray “Gear Saver” 80w90 GL-5 Oil – no change – the noise is still present. I also noted there was a new but smaller clump of metal particles on the Drain Plug this time as well as glittering metal particles in the oil drain pan.

I am now working on a Theory that the Cush Drive Spring (BMW P/N: 23-00-2-330-166, Compression Spring) has broken and thusly the noise results as well as the metal particles (from the beating the Cush Drive was taking). I also noted the Transmission housing never got excessively hot like it would if a bearing had failed. Also, the resulting motion (or rather thrashing) of the Cush Drive (BMW P/Ns: 23-21-2-333-047, GEAR WHEEL and 23-00-2-330-163, Thrust adapter) would create the foamy bubbles since it’s partially submerged in the oil.

I plan to start the disassembly process this weekend - hopefully my theory is proven correct by what I find...I'll repost with info on what I actually find.

Here is the Transmission Input Shaft with the Cush Drive and Spring Circled:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1286412351.jpg

The springs rarely fail (#7)......parts #3&4 will get some wear.......but I bet you have bearing #2 or #14 on it's way out.
Whatever it is........best to catch it now. I have seen a couple of transmissions destroyed because people have let them go too long and then something comes apart, destroying either a gear set or the cases.

Post photos and what you find, please.

Cheers

Thanks for the note Droptarotter. I also suspect the Wave Washer (#3) may have broke.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1286496789.jpg

Shredder made a good comment about the source of the bubbles in the oil - I think he makes a good point.

I can only theorize that if the Cush Drive is flopping about because the Wave Washer (#3) is broke then it could be the source of the numerous small bubbles I observed.

In fact the BMW R1100S Repair Manual calls it an "anti-rattle disc" on page 160 of 302:
"Remove backup washer (5), spring cluster (4), anti-rattle disc (3), thrust block (2) and constantspeed gear (1)."

Bike is ~1/3 torn down - will hopefully get to the bottom of this mystery on the weekend.

Update?

Cheers

It got hot here on Saturday so didn't get as far as I'd hoped before retiring to the coolness of the house.

Here's the progress so far. Left to to remove - tank, rear frame w/swing arm, battery, air-box, and then the trans.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1286850935.jpg

It'll probably come out this coming weekend.

r111 THANKS FOR SHARING THIS

Its pertinent to some of my decisions for sure..

So wouldn't you replace all suspect parts and do a replacement of clutch and slave

cylinder as you are going this far??

I have a big list of Part Numbers of items for replacement while I fix the Transmission and yes the Clutch/Flywheel/Slave Cyl is part of the list.

Examination of each part will determine if replacement is necessary but some items will be replaced just because they're old and I don't want to suffer a breakdown only a few thousand miles after this repair.

Aside from Dan's unfortunate saga going on (man that oil just says so much!) I realized I never did follow up on this.

My clacking sound came from the driveshaft after all. I had installed the driveshaft out of phase upon installation of the final drive. It didn't make any noise for a couple weeks after installation. But eventually I pulled the drive off to inspect things.

The pivot pins showed some interference with the driveshaft's knuckles were chipping them away. While I was certain I had alignment correct upon reinstallation, I found by double-checking the driveshaft that I had not.

I ended up pulling the paralever arm to check it thoroughly and marking the spline. After reassembly the second time, the noise and vibrations went away.

Dan, keep us updated!

Here in Athens there's 2 dealers. Beemers are more common than Honda's C50. We are talking A LOT of bikes - not dozens (GS mostly).

The most serious dealer does this cush drive spring job (they called it "prize direct" - don't ask why) EVERY f****g day in Beemers (R12 fail around the 30K mark - the more potent a bike is... the "better") and there's a big parking full of bikes waiting for the Doctor.

He says that from model to model (and from year to year) Getrag is trying various design "variations" - but they all are bad engineering (solution could be a sprung operated classic dry friction plate - pure automotive stuff).

If some vacations in Greece occur it could be amusing to see it happening in such a regular way (it's kinda a production line - in reverse).

PS: Replaced mine (and several failed gearbox sealed bearings) at 25K. Took the liberty to use open bearings - mind (SKF/Koyo).

peter can you supply more details, what exactly is being replaced or modified? i am not familiar with a common R12 drive failure around the 30K. does greece get all the QA rejects from the factory as a rule? :confused:

If this was happening to me in a CAR I would IMMEDIATELY assume it was the throw-out bearing or trans input shaft bearing. I don't know enough about the BMW clutch assembly (yet) to say that with any conviction. Have had this on a few Honda cars.

Well.

1. Greece has a colossal amount of Beemers (believe it : in certain districts of Athens you can spot more GS - and Porsche Cayenne - than moppets and Toyotas). This maybe has to do (or is due) with the forthcoming Greek bankruptcy (unavoidable) but why bother? we live once..

2. Chief Supremo Guru Antony (there's only one Antony in Athens, he he) points that the cush drive spring and/or the "stop" medium (kinda a "washer") fail due to insufficient material strength - always in relation with the gear engagement forces applied. Antony's Chief supremo technician (known as The Merciless - he does the job with a robot like style) says other things as well that can't been written in a Noble Forum like this one. Note: in Antony's backyard there's at least 80 bikes (daily) waiting for some kind of service - that maybe gives you some clue about his aperture of experience.

3. Chief etc etc says "silent" (tiny) changes in the whole gearbox assembly it's a frequent phenomenon (I never bothered to ask him exact details) - these include a recent size differentiation in the gearbox bearing sizes (remember my recent search for non OEM bearings? - circa Sept 2010). Spring "stop" washer shape/size and the spring itself fall into that category as well.

4. Chief Troll R12S user (yours truly) says that a far simpler/better solution could be to establish some direct link between Getrag - RB Racing...or maybe better a long distance call to Japan.

But why bother? Sooner or later you'll come to Greece (Myconos, Corfu, Girls, Ouzo, Ducatis, fast boats, wild nights etc etc) and ...well..you know what they say ...seeing is believing.

Progress report...
 

Been procrastinating on this since last fall. Finally removed the Transmission and now I have to split the Transmission Case Halves. The Throw-out Bearing looks fine and there was no evidence of Brake Fluid leaking there.

Does anyone have tips/experience on splitting the Trans? I've not done it before but I do know that the Case Halves must be heated (Heat Gun I assume) in order for them to let loose of the Bearings on the ends of three Shafts inside.

Here's a couple pics of my Clutch Splines after 70K miles. I lubed them @50K miles and they're so red/rusty you'd never know it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1301176913.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1301176942.jpg

I'll post again after splitting the Trans. Hopefully it will be obvious what the source of the "Can of Marbles" sound is.

Spin that transmission spline shaft with your fingers. If it doesn't move freely in nueteral or "feels" anything but slightly resistant smooth spinning that would be your input shaft bearing failing. Unfortunately if that is the issue that is the limit of my knowledge on a fix. When its happened to me I went to a junkyard and got a new tranny but I know you don't have that luxury. If that's not the source of your "marbles" let us know what you find.

Good Idea BikerMiker...Input shaft spins just fine. Also, the Transmission never felt hot after a ride which, if it was hot, could indicate a failed Bearing inside.

I had an Output Shaft Bearing failure on my Airhead GS and the trans got very hot.

:confused:What was your Idle set at ? if it is below 1000 rpm you get the sound you are talking about:eek:

Idle speed is where it's always been so no change there. This noise appeared suddenly and there were metalic flecks in the Trans Oil afterwards. I've also done the R1200 Left Cam Chain Tensioner upgrade so that can be eliminated as a noise source as well.

Just wait till after I split open the Transmission...that'll be the end of speculation on whats wrong.

Metal in the trans oil not good!

Anxiously following this thread. I have the same exact noise on mine. Goes away with throttle or pulling the clutch in.

I forgot about this... Good thing you are taking care of that... I've been trying to think this whole time why that marble sound seemed so familiar and I finally remembered my old Mazda B2000 pickup. Same described sound like marbles in a can that was exactly it. Anyway I let it go (I had a five speed waiting in the wings) and while pulling out one day the transmission completely disintegrated inside locking up without a hint. It was full of shavings and newly made metal chunks. Very cool. Not cool if I would have been going faster than 25. Never cared about why or how just replaced it. Anyway point is that a transmission locking up on you in a snap with no warning could be catastrophic (or a good story with friends at the pub). Well... I guess the marble sound is the warning.

Got the Transmission split open today.

I drained the Bel-Ray 80w90 that I put in last fall and there were no metal flecks like the previous drain...well it was the third oil change in ~50 miles so maybe got them all out? Also the Magnet on the Drain Plug had very few metal flecks versus the previous drain.

The Repair Manual showed a Heat Gun used to bring the case up to 100 Deg C. I instead put the Trans Case (Output Shaft Bearing End) in a large Aluminum Foil Pan (cheap) and then poured Boiling Water into it. I then tapped on the upper Housing half and it came off very easily.

1) Cush Drive "Anti Rattle Disc" seems fine. I expected to see the ramps of the Cush Drive looking all beat up if the Disc was broke but the Input Shaft is as tight as a drum and the Cush Drive ramps surfaces are smooth .
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1301790869.jpg

2) This Bearing on the end Intermediate Shaft has a "not good" feel when I spin it. The other two Bearings on this end feel fine but I'm thinking best to replace all 6 bearings. The Shifting Fork Guide (Barrel Cam) looks really good too. Surprisingly since it's made of Aluminum versus Steel.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1301790975.jpg

So more disassembly to do and so far found a bad bearing but not what I expected...is the intermediate shaft loaded that much?

I doubt you will find anything major wrong with it. Synching the throttle bodies usually makes it go away.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/25383-rattling-gearbox-advice-sought.html

I would replace all six bearings while you are in there.
If you change the bearings the shafts should be checked for the correct shimming/axial play.

Cheers

I hope this doesn't lead to a bunch of people taking their transmissions apart without taking the simple steps first.

Just saying...

Thanks for all the helpful advice Guys but even a good 'ol Throttle Sync won't cure a sudden heafty amount of metal flecks in the gear oil I'm afraid. :^) Especially after 70K Miles. The zillions of Bubbles in the Gear Oil was disturbing too.

And thanks for the reminder DR, you're correct. There are measurements and shims to be mindful of when replacing bearings and such inside. Fortunately the BMW Repair Manual gives the measurements...just wish I had a stack of Shims close at hand.

Now I'm at a decision point of spening money for new trans parts versus buying a low miles used trans and hoping the alignment to the engine block is good (correct spline alignment).

Repair your own........you are into it so far already and you should be able to get most of the bearings at a bearing house inexpensively.

Cheers

Thanks DR...Yes I will replace all 6 Bearings. Closer inspection reveals they're all loose.

I wonder why they're all of the sealed type? One idea is that if the trans oil plug fell out the bearings wouldn't lock up unexpectedly?

I believe they are like that to keep the crap out. It is not so much a seal as it is a cover/protecter.....as oil will get into the bearing, so it is not completely sealed.

I have the same sealed type bearings on my KTM for the cam. It was the first time I had seen that inside an engine.

So I did a little test to see if oil would get into the bearings. I just put them in a cup of oil and watched the bubbles come out.......that told me they would get oil quite easily.......so I installed the new ones with the seal.

Cheers

Righto DR...they do leak oil. I finally got them out of the Trans cases. Stubbornness is too easy a word to describe how difficult it was to extract them from the Trans Case cavities...or maybe I need better tools? Sicher ist Sicher!!!

Anyway I've done some online research and determined that four of them can be replaced by a 6205-2RS. One is a 6204-2RS and the last one is a 6003-2RS.

The online prices I'm finding for each bearing is $2 or $3 each. OTOH BMW wants $57.10 for the 6205-2RS, $30.70 for the 6204-2RS, and $25.14 for the 6003-2RS. Are the BMW units made of "unobtainium"?..how can they think of such waaaaayyyyy off the mark pricing?

Thinking about my riding style...I accelerate semi-hard mostly and always use engine braking for setting up a curve or coming to a stop. So two prevailing forces in opposing directions placed over a twin cylinder beat...maybe the bearings succumbed to this duty cycle as the miles (70K now) accumulated?

Here's the bearings:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1304205028.jpg

I bought six new NTN Brand Bearings at a local Bearing Shop. Total Cost was $73.75 including Tax. According to my calculations this is $238 less than I'd pay for them at a BMW Dealer.

I checked the NTN Bearing website for specs on these new Bearings. It was interesting to note that the Static Load value is roughly half of the Dynamic Load value.

I imagine there may be a logarithmic kind of relationship between load capability and the rotational speed of the bearing such that the load capability increases rapidly and then levels off to a flat line.

This apsect of the load carrying profile makes me think negatively about aggressive off the line acceleration.

This is my 4th BMW Transmission failure (3 failures of the Output Shaft Bearing on my Airhead and now this one on the Intermediate Shaft Bearing). My riding technique must be awful or BMW Transmissions are weak or both?

Here's the specs on the NTN Bearings:
Bearing Part No...Description......................Qty...Static Load (LBF/N)...Dynamic Load (LBF/N)...Price
6003LLBC3/L627..17x35x10 Sealed Bearing....1......775/3350................1530/6800...................$12.67
6204LLBC3/L627..20x47x14 Sealed Bearing....1......1500/6650...............2890/12800.................$7.85
6205LLBC3/L627..25x52x15 Sealed Bearing....4......1770/7850...............3150/14000.................$11.90

So did we ever get to the cause of the clackety sound? I have the same sound coming from my r1200s. Only when clutch is released in neutral and engine/gearbox are warm. No noise when engine is cold. I have fitted a slipper clutch. Clutch working fine, gear box changing smoothly. Noise only in neatral with clutch engaged. No shiny bits in gear oil. I'm suspecting it's something like an input shaft bearing. Any ideas folks?