Clacky clack sound. Clutch? If not, what?

[Sideshow_S]

Hey guys. Miles have been catching up to me. Hit 111,111 a few weeks ago and since then it's been a turn for the worse. Fragged a final drive that I scored on Ebay 30K+ miles ago that I was going to put on the other bike and was bench testing. So much for that one, back to the stocker.

This last weekend I returned from a ride with a clacking sound which seems to be the clutch. At idle and in neutral, there's a louder sound from what I believe is the dry clutch because it goes away when you pull the clutch lever in. No noise when under acceleration or maintaining speed, but it returns on decelleration. When in gear and coming to a stop, the clacks slow with the bike. Cramming on the brakes from 20mph down to zero will create a slowing procession of clacking. Like the deceleration forces cause whatever is rattling to clatter more. It's rhythmic and not a sporadic noise. As the bike slows, it slows. It's definitely between the driveshaft and the engine. Coasting in neutral and revving the engine does not change the clatter, so it's not the engine or the flywheel side of the clutch.

I don't feel any difference in the clutch engagement and it will still pop wheelies as it always has. No slipping detected and no odd over-gripping of the clutch.

Could this have something to do with the starter engagement mechanism?

Anyone know why this would happen? Is it simply loose rivets on the clutch disc?

I fortunately have a spare pressure plate and clutch disc, but I just lack time to split the bike this week. The temps are dropping and my garage space is minimal. Not looking forward to dealing with this. Might actually have to pause on riding for a week.

[JimMoore]

It doesn't sound like the driveshaft, but it is easy enough to put it on the centerstand and spin the rear wheel. Like me! Driveshaft Explosion (Almost)

[Sideshow_S]

Originally Posted by JimMoore

It doesn't sound like the driveshaft, but it is easy enough to put it on the centerstand and spin the rear wheel. Like me! Driveshaft Explosion (Almost)

Nope, Jim, but your thread was inspiration for me actually asking about it. You REALLY lucked out. The clack happens with the bike in neutral and sitting still. I'm taking it out for a spin. Hopefully it doesn't blow the clutch.

[R111S]

So it's not the components that are connected to the rear of the Crank but it is the components connected to the Trasmission? Have you studied the Parts Fische to see just what those components could be?

And "still pop wheelies as it always has"???...I got cured of that on my Airhead after I ruined the Output Shaft Bearing the 3rd time...trans work is so expensive :^(

[R111S]

Did a nice ~1500 mile 5-day ride to Missouri and Arkansas last week and on the way home heard a "can of marbles" sound coming from the transmission similar like Sideshiow_S describes here.

Oh just have to interrupt the flow so here's a vid still pic from AR Rt.341:


Anyway, we'd taken a break for lunch in Litchfield, IL and as I started up my trusty '99 R1100S w/~70K Miles on it I heard this awful "can of marbles" sound. The transmission worked fine up to then and continued to work fine for the remaining ~120 Miles ride home via the Slab. Could it be the Clutch is on it's last legs?

Symptoms:

1. The "can of marbles" sound is present when stationary, in neutral, and clutch lever released.

2. The "can of marbles" sound is NOT present when stationary, in neutral, and clutch lever pulled in.

3. Set it on the center stand and put it in 1st gear and added some throttle - "can of marbles" sound is present.

4. Still on the center stand and put it in 2st gear and added some throttle - "can of marbles" sound is present.

5. Still on the center stand and put it in 2st gear and added some throttle - "can of marbles" sound is present during accel/decel but goes away as soon as the Clutch Lever is pulled in.

Hmmmm...maybe it's not the Clutch...

I'm thinking Transmission Oil moisture contamination now so I open the Transmission fill Port and have a look with a bright flashlight. Lots of tiny bubbles and a lite muddy green look to the oil. Not good so I drain it all out - talk about milky green slime!!!



And here's the Drain Plug with metalic filings on the magnet:



And here's the brand of Transmission Oil I use that was put in 4948 miles ago:



I'm going to re-fill the Transmission with new Gear Oil and see if the "can of marbles" sound goes away...hopefully. Just letting it drain real well right now so that all the green slime drains out thoroughly.

[shreddr]

something tells me that oil is aerated because of whatever is causing the "can of marbles" i hate to be negative, but don't count on a change of oil to fix your problem

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Nail24

Thanks Flatty.

??

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by Nail24

How did it get here. I was thanking you for the info on Dani's fly-by-wire problem. I think it's the aliens.

oh....you're welcome. dang aliens

[blsuedeshu]

I have noticed the same noise on my 2004 S with 31k on the clock. It occurs when I start the bike cold in neutral. If I pump the cluch lever a few times, it goes away.

It leads me to believe that maybe the cluch needs to be bled to tighten up the fluid columm a bit.

[R111S]

The plot thickens...

At first I thought maybe the Transmission Vent had failed and allowed moisture into the Transmission and thus contaminating the Oil – but ~2 hours later I observed the drained out Oil had no bubbles in it and looked like new. This Spectro Hypoid Gear Lubricant GL-5 SAE 80w 90 Oil had been poured in last Spring. I had some more of this Oil and so refilled the Transmission to see if the noise would stop – it didn’t. I even went for a ride to see if I could get the moisture to boil off.

I then decided to drain the Oil and refill it again with new oil ~40 miles later. I put in Bel-Ray “Gear Saver” 80w90 GL-5 Oil – no change – the noise is still present. I also noted there was a new but smaller clump of metal particles on the Drain Plug this time as well as glittering metal particles in the oil drain pan.

I am now working on a Theory that the Cush Drive Spring (BMW P/N: 23-00-2-330-166, Compression Spring) has broken and thusly the noise results as well as the metal particles (from the beating the Cush Drive was taking). I also noted the Transmission housing never got excessively hot like it would if a bearing had failed. Also, the resulting motion (or rather thrashing) of the Cush Drive (BMW P/Ns: 23-21-2-333-047, GEAR WHEEL and 23-00-2-330-163, Thrust adapter) would create the foamy bubbles since it’s partially submerged in the oil.

I plan to start the disassembly process this weekend - hopefully my theory is proven correct by what I find...I'll repost with info on what I actually find.

Here is the Transmission Input Shaft with the Cush Drive and Spring Circled:

[Droptarotter]

The springs rarely fail (#7)......parts #3&4 will get some wear.......but I bet you have bearing #2 or #14 on it's way out.
Whatever it is........best to catch it now. I have seen a couple of transmissions destroyed because people have let them go too long and then something comes apart, destroying either a gear set or the cases.

Post photos and what you find, please.

Cheers

[R111S]

Originally Posted by Droptarotter

The springs rarely fail (#7)......parts #3&4 will get some wear.......but I bet you have bearing #2 or #14 on it's way out.
Whatever it is........best to catch it now. I have seen a couple of transmissions destroyed because people have let them go too long and then something comes apart, destroying either a gear set or the cases.

Post photos and what you find, please.

Cheers

Thanks for the note Droptarotter. I also suspect the Wave Washer (#3) may have broke.



Shredder made a good comment about the source of the bubbles in the oil - I think he makes a good point.

I can only theorize that if the Cush Drive is flopping about because the Wave Washer (#3) is broke then it could be the source of the numerous small bubbles I observed.

In fact the BMW R1100S Repair Manual calls it an "anti-rattle disc" on page 160 of 302:
"Remove backup washer (5), spring cluster (4), anti-rattle disc (3), thrust block (2) and constantspeed gear (1)."

Bike is ~1/3 torn down - will hopefully get to the bottom of this mystery on the weekend.

[Droptarotter]

Update?

Cheers

[R111S]

Originally Posted by Droptarotter

Update?

Cheers

It got hot here on Saturday so didn't get as far as I'd hoped before retiring to the coolness of the house.

Here's the progress so far. Left to to remove - tank, rear frame w/swing arm, battery, air-box, and then the trans.



It'll probably come out this coming weekend.

[Martin Glasser]

r111 THANKS FOR SHARING THIS

Its pertinent to some of my decisions for sure..

So wouldn't you replace all suspect parts and do a replacement of clutch and slave

cylinder as you are going this far??

[R111S]

I have a big list of Part Numbers of items for replacement while I fix the Transmission and yes the Clutch/Flywheel/Slave Cyl is part of the list.

Examination of each part will determine if replacement is necessary but some items will be replaced just because they're old and I don't want to suffer a breakdown only a few thousand miles after this repair.

[Sideshow_S]

Aside from Dan's unfortunate saga going on (man that oil just says so much!) I realized I never did follow up on this.

My clacking sound came from the driveshaft after all. I had installed the driveshaft out of phase upon installation of the final drive. It didn't make any noise for a couple weeks after installation. But eventually I pulled the drive off to inspect things.

The pivot pins showed some interference with the driveshaft's knuckles were chipping them away. While I was certain I had alignment correct upon reinstallation, I found by double-checking the driveshaft that I had not.

I ended up pulling the paralever arm to check it thoroughly and marking the spline. After reassembly the second time, the noise and vibrations went away.

Dan, keep us updated!

[peter f]

Originally Posted by R111S

I am now working on a Theory that the Cush Drive Spring (BMW P/N: 23-00-2-330-166, Compression Spring) has broken and thusly the noise results as well as the metal particles (from the beating the Cush Drive was taking). ]

Here in Athens there's 2 dealers. Beemers are more common than Honda's C50. We are talking A LOT of bikes - not dozens (GS mostly).

The most serious dealer does this cush drive spring job (they called it "prize direct" - don't ask why) EVERY f****g day in Beemers (R12 fail around the 30K mark - the more potent a bike is... the "better") and there's a big parking full of bikes waiting for the Doctor.

He says that from model to model (and from year to year) Getrag is trying various design "variations" - but they all are bad engineering (solution could be a sprung operated classic dry friction plate - pure automotive stuff).

If some vacations in Greece occur it could be amusing to see it happening in such a regular way (it's kinda a production line - in reverse).

PS: Replaced mine (and several failed gearbox sealed bearings) at 25K. Took the liberty to use open bearings - mind (SKF/Koyo).

[shreddr]

peter can you supply more details, what exactly is being replaced or modified? i am not familiar with a common R12 drive failure around the 30K. does greece get all the QA rejects from the factory as a rule?

[BikerMiker]

1. The "can of marbles" sound is present when stationary, in neutral, and clutch lever released.

2. The "can of marbles" sound is NOT present when stationary, in neutral, and clutch lever pulled in.

If this was happening to me in a CAR I would IMMEDIATELY assume it was the throw-out bearing or trans input shaft bearing. I don't know enough about the BMW clutch assembly (yet) to say that with any conviction. Have had this on a few Honda cars.