Idle actuators VS me VS R12S

peter f · 01-19-2010, 07:35 AM

Well; friends

Issue N13 for that Saturday Night (Fever optional) made bike of mine. Yes that R12S thing:

History

Since day zero + ~9 months the thing started the SIP (standard idle problems). When this happens it happens gradually: at first when cold the bike is OK…then when warm occasionally idles OK…occasionally not. After a period (1-2 months) defaults to the later option. Broken nerves, Ouzo + Vodka etc etc.

Idle is erratic (kinda like one coil is damaged) and unstable (1200-1100-1000 rmp). Fuel consumption goes to Mars and plugs (sometimes on both cylinders, sometimes in one) are oily.

Fight N1 with Dealer > no Sir these things work OK > no Sir these are crappy things >…> both idle actuators replaced under warranty. Problem cured instantly. Fast forward 10 months later the problem reappeared. Fight2 with Dealer > see Fight1.

Present

Now we are in Fight3 but with warranty expired. The fact that the problem is persisting in a "cyclic way" makes me suspicious about other causes: I wonder if some kind of leak is around (in the K&N and/or in the airbox itself) and small dirt debris collect in that small air valve “piston” – rather is a diaphragm - kinda like a non optical mouse that collects dirt in his internals.

Question is: should I dismantle these things and clean them (the diaphragm) and apply some Teflon spray? Or use the old good method - the sledgehammer tool applied in the bike (as a whole).

tjs · 01-19-2010, 07:59 AM

Mine are starting to act up again. I to replaced them both. In the states you have a 2 year prts wtty. I have a new set out in the garage. When it really starts getting bad I'll put the new set on. I have the GS-11 Code reader. It will also syncronize the new stepper motors. To bad the r12S is the only version that uses the larger VDO steppers. Not sure about the HP2S. I also try to run some of BMW's fuel system cleaner through a full tank of gas every 3k miles. I know the frustration. tjs

macfly · 01-19-2010, 08:02 AM

Is this a constant problem with the R12S that I should be on the lookout for?

peter f · 01-19-2010, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjs

I know the frustration. tjs

It's really a big disappointment (I can't accept a DFI bike that doesn't idle). Not sure what's going on in Greece with OEM part warranty...BUT the big BUT is that it's really difficult to document this sort of problem for some kind of claim.

Not to mention side effect n2 > I suspect that my "race" (kinda) HPE cat is contaminated - unburnt fuel when idling (?) etc etc etc. Bike smells like a rat.

Try to tour in Switzerland that way...

Where's my triple Vodka? (Stoli obviously)

tjs · 01-19-2010, 08:41 AM

not to many have had this problem. I bought any early 07. It usually is not consistant. Happens when it feels like it. You come to a stop sign or pull in your yard and the bike feels and sounds like it's running on 1 or 1.5 cylinders. AS soon as you come of of idle it goes away. When I was still employed I did a complete check of all systems with GT-1. It never did show there was a problem whith the idle actuators. I changed them both anyway. Problem gone. I don't think CKCARR has had that problem and we bought our bikes about the same time. hope this helps. tjs

peter f · 01-19-2010, 09:12 AM

Well...to tell you the truth I'm so pissed with the whole situation that (a) I'm seriously considering the sledgehammer repair option (b) I'm thinking to replace these tin made diaphragms (orange in 3d model) with titanium proper micro pistons that could follow the VDO cylinder in a proper manner.

3d model is made in order to explain(?) to Dealer how these things work (???) and why I'm thinking that these are the cause of my problems. PS: Of course GT-1 can't diagnose similar problems.

tjs · 01-19-2010, 11:27 AM

Peter,
Does that 3d also show the plated plunger that extends from the bottom? My original ones which I have in front of me show wear on the outside of the plunger and none on the inside . Always lead me to believe that when the symtom takes place, they might be sticking in the TB bore. That's why the new replacements with smooth plated plungers cured the problem. I also have a pair of steppers off an 05RT they have a different shaped plunger. I also see no wear on them. Noted they are both assembled in Mexico. tjs

OwenM · 01-19-2010, 03:19 PM

I experienced this problem on my R12S, when hot it would occasionally idle very poorly like on 1.5 cylinders but I found that if I turned the bike off and restarted the problem went away every time which suggested a sticking idle actuator. When you turn the ignition on the actuators cycle by driving out as far as possible and then back in to the correct position ready for start.

One day my left side actuator stuck, the bike would only run on the right cylinder, I disconnected and reconnected the electrical plug on the actuator in case there was a bad connection but it made no difference. I then removed the actuator to inspect it but found it perfectly clean and unmarked so I plugged in the wiring and turned on the ignition to see if it worked, it drove all the way out and back in. I did this a couple of times as it looks like the actuator can drive out more when removed and I hopped that the extra travel would help distribute lubricant in the stepper motor. I reinstalled the actuator and it worked perfectly until the bike was sold.

So if you have idle actuator problems try taking then off and with the wiring connected cycle them a few times with the ignition switch. If they drive out and back in they are working so reinstall. This may or may not help but its worth a try, it could get you out of trouble temporarily or even permanently.

My R12RT seems to use identical actuators and is yet to show any problems (touch wood).

tomn · 01-20-2010, 06:14 PM

Owen, thanks for the tip, your choice of bikes are intriguing

OwenM · 01-20-2010, 07:10 PM

I owned the R12S for 18 months before buying the Ducati and shortly after the RT.
While I loved the R12S it was a compromise, the Duc was a better sports bike and the RT a better tourer and all rounder so I sold the S. Unfortunately I crashed the Ducati 3 months ago and it is now gone leaving only the RT for the moment.

I fitted Ohlins to the RT which has transforming it into a great handler without destroying the comfort, it just lacks the straight line get up and go of the S, but that could be a blessing as I need to slow down. Another sports bike could encourage me to do bad things.

peter f · 01-20-2010, 09:14 PM

So, you are ready for the RSV4?

He He

peter f · 01-21-2010, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjs

Peter,
Does that 3d also show the plated plunger that extends from the bottom? My original ones which I have in front of me show wear on the outside of the plunger and none on the inside . Always lead me to believe that when the symtom takes place, they might be sticking in the TB bore. That's why the new replacements with smooth plated plungers cured the problem. I also have a pair of steppers off an 05RT they have a different shaped plunger. I also see no wear on them. Noted they are both assembled in Mexico. tjs

Hmm

This "rough" 3d model of mine is made for "demo" purposes...and thus it doesn't represent the actual items.

I "Dismantled" the crappy things and have them compared with the old crappy things. They appear identical with regard the plunger design ...which means that the idiot client (yours truly) got (both times) the very same problematic batch/build...

Mercy Motorrad (and VDO).

tjs · 01-21-2010, 01:57 PM

They will be identical. I was only using the 05 rt steppers as a reference to different design of the plungers. The 05 rt stepper will not fit the R12s. The VDO style that we use is much bigger. Did You notice any wear marks on the plungers? tjs

peter f · 01-21-2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjs

They will be identical. I was only using the 05 rt steppers as a reference to different design of the plungers. The 05 rt stepper will not fit the R12s. The VDO style that we use is much bigger. Did You notice any wear marks on the plungers? tjs

Yes of course...but the only way to get rid of that permanently is to do some DIY work with some top machinist (and a "micro piston" like diaphragm) Quite a few 12 series here in Greece they suffer form that problem but in most cases riders they don't understand/know/care to learn what these gizmos are...thus dealers provide the standard reply: no Sir, there's nothing wrong with your bike, GT-1 reports that all are OK, blah blah blah...

peter f · 01-21-2010, 10:04 PM

PS: here's what I'm thinking for that wear : that cheapo diaphragm it doesn't fit exactly in the inner cylinder in the way that a micro piston could. Due to motor vibrations et all (and maybe thermal expansions) the plunger does NOT hit the diaphragm in the ideal center position and thus the sum of these "eccentric" hits ...result non coaxial forces...plunger "vibrates" ...and wear occurs.

"Kinda" like the classic R series single plated dry clutch problem (splines kaput etc etc etc)

Dave Bowen · 01-25-2010, 02:05 PM

I battled the dealer about these stepper motor beasts for over a year. I hit pay dirt when the national roaming BMW guru was in Seattle and lucked out in having him ride my bike for an hour (his personal bike is an R1200s also). He told the service department to change out both throttle bodies - like the whole thing. He would not believe me when I told him of the threads on this forum regarding this problem. So in a shot gun sort of technique he played it safe and replaced everything. It's not his money . . . .
After the switch out of both TBs my bike has never run better. It's like a different bike. Here's to BMW carpet bombing!

peter f · 01-30-2010, 05:41 AM

(Hmm + Hmm) ** Hmm > read this: IAC — Hex code

peter f · 05-07-2010, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Bowen

I battled the dealer about these stepper motor beasts for over a year. I hit pay dirt when the national roaming BMW guru was in Seattle and lucked out in having him ride my bike for an hour (his personal bike is an R1200s also). He told the service department to change out both throttle bodies - like the whole thing. He would not believe me when I told him of the threads on this forum regarding this problem. So in a shot gun sort of technique he played it safe and replaced everything. It's not his money . . . .
After the switch out of both TBs my bike has never run better. It's like a different bike. Here's to BMW carpet bombing!

This throttle body replacement thing is a good problem solving start-up,

Here's the latest: After measuring (infra red pistol) exhaust temperatures on headers AND taking into account the persistent problem (3rd idle actuator set) on the right cylinder (difference 30oC and lean mixture for more than obvious reasons) AND consuming 1 bottle of ouzo AND 1.75 bottle of vodka AND removing the air ducts AND messing with the idle pistons AND measuring intake pressures with a digital (dealer) instrument ...

... I conclude that the right throttle body is somehow badly machined with regard the female idle piston "fitment" (see attached).

This cause eccentric idle piston operation and over time failure to retract fully etc etc etc.

3 solutions:

1. buy a new right throttle body (500E++) - warranty expired.
2. machine (hard silicone/Teflon) an elastic male idle piston special "alignment" end.
3. machine (hard silicone/Teflon) an elastic female "gasket" on the throttle body.

Any suggestions ? (on 2,3)

cageyar · cageyar's Garage

Interesting stuff and thanks for the website link.

Working for manufacturers for 30 years, I'd take a run at giving BMW a chance to warranty them/it before you make modifications. Once you do that, you're done.

I'd suggest getting some details from Dave Bowen. Then contact your BMW distributor directly to request/setup an inspection at a dealer, preferrably another dealer than the one that refused to acknowledge the issue. You have done a lot of research on the issue and you should, by being patient and presistent with the distributor, be able to get the inspection accomplished. Don't forget they get input from everywhere and are likely familiar with other accounts of the issue vs. the dealer's limited exposure. I'd say your chances a likely 60/40 at getting at least some assistance from BMW, like perhaps just a new throttle body, parts only.

Give it a shot first .

JonyRR · 05-08-2010, 07:16 AM

I read this and sigh.

So much for BMW being a premium brand..you would think these kinds of problems came from some korean or chinese ripoff startup.

it's not so much this stuff happens, but that the mfg pretends this does not exist and that the issues we have are all in our heads.

next bike, a reliable honda....VFR1200.