Will NHTSA go after BMW?

[2wheelmike]

I was just reading in the paper this morning about Prius ABS issues that have NHTSA piling it on Toyota. It seems people report that under braking over bumpy roads, the brakes feel like they let off completely
I've experienced this many times on my R12S and once it nearly put me into the back of a truck I was passing on Hwy 33 when I decided not to pass at the last moment and had to break quite hard, but not a panic-type situation (until the brakes let off). I have always assumed it's just a design "feature" of the ABS on our bikes, but does everybody experience this or is my ABS problematic? If this is the way it's supposed to work, I'm a little surprised more people don't complain about it. Maybe that's why BMW thought to fit a disable switch rather than the race-track reasoning? Tracks are always smoother than most CA roads, so I've never experienced it at the track.

[AndrewA]

It's like floating on air sometimes, isn't it?

[macfly]

Funny thing is I have experienced it in my old Toyota Land Cruiser, in the seven years I had it that happened maybe two dozen times, always down hill on bad surfaces, very scary in such a heavy car, but happily it never caused me to have an accident.

So far I've not noticed it on the R12S.

[signit98]

It's an inherent problem with the very principle by which the ABS systems work... measuring the speed differential between the wheels (as an easy explanation). Bumps, at times will cause the wheel to loose contact and cause a measurable difference...

Easy fix:

LEARN HOW TO BUILD PROPER ROAD SURFACES!

[markjenn]

If they "go after BMW" they'd have to go after about every ABS system out there right now. You can't engineer an ABS system that works perfectly in every possible situation.

This "sky is falling" hysteria over vehicle safety systems right now is ridiculous. None are foolproof, but somehow the tradeoffs aren't something you can communicate very well to John Q. Public. When you have moms holding their kids and crying into the TV that "I thought my car was safe, but now I don't know", the politicians get involved and then katy bar the door.

I also think that the fact the US government is a 51% owner in GM puts the NHTSA in a unique conflict of interest position. There have been many reports of undue pressure being exerted on Toyota and that their waffling has been, at least in part, in reaction to threats from the NHTSA. There are a lot of people benefiting from Toyota's problems.

Let the engineers work the problem. Let Toyota fix it. In the meantime, keep driving the car, but review the engine shutoff procedure in the OM in case the 1-million chance bites you. Somehow this sort of reasonable approach isn't possible in today's world.

- Mark

[AndrewA]

NHTSA might want to look into how ridiculously easily it is to tip over these BMW motorcycles, or even how easy it is to fall off!

[2wheelmike]

With all the raving about the S1000RR DTC/ABS, I'll be curious how it handles such braking over bumpy road situations? Race bikes monitor suspension movement, which if tied into ABS would allow them to be much smarter about not confusing bumpy roads with loss of traction. And the new bike even has an IMU of sorts which could make it smarter still by comparing actual velocity to wheel-derived velocity. But of course with added complexity comes added room for mistakes in software, sensors, etc.

I find it a bit infuriating listening to all the politicians jumping on this anti-Toyota bandwagon. Aren't there better things for those folks to be worrying about right now? I'm talking to you Henry Waxman!

[1100s nut]

Keep in mind Toyota has killed over 19 people with some of these issues. If one of your family members were killed you be happy Mr. Waxman is beating up on Toyota. I have never seen a large well respected manufacture drop the ball like Toyota has. Say what you want to about BMW but they would have a done more faster that Toyota has done. Heck I remember 1996 0r 1997 my dad bought a new 740i and he got a phone call from bmw a couple of years later about a possible engine problem...losing compression and burning oil. My dad says no...everything seems fine...thanks for calling. BMW- Well Mr. XXXXXX we are not sure whether you can detect the problem...we can come get the car and drop of a loaner. Gets a call a few days later....we are putting in a new engine. Dad- well I think the warranty is up. Don`t worry Mr.XXXXX we will take care it.

And this was not a safety issue.

Lane

[cageyar]

Waxman blows.

[1100s nut]

I hope for Toyota sake its not some of the same gas pedal problems Volvo has had. ETM "aka" fly by wire. I was part of a class action lawsuit...not for damages buy to fix a problem they did not want to take blame for. Mine failed....in traffic no warning just engine off. $900 dollar fix. These things were failing everywhere. Volvo said not not our problem. They dropped the ball. I have owned 4 volvo`s for business travel, great for business... customers don`t give you crap about them. No More, never. Dumped the s80 licked my wounds and bought a 530i, its a 2005 now with 127,000 miles and the only problem( I have all records from day one)...the seat memory needed to re-flashed. Not bad.

Lane

[jduke]

Originally Posted by markjenn

I also think that the fact the US government is a 51% owner in GM puts the NHTSA in a unique conflict of interest position. There have been many reports of undue pressure being exerted on Toyota and that their waffling has been, at least in part, in reaction to threats from the NHTSA. There are a lot of people benefiting from Toyota's problems.

- Mark

Mark, you been listening to Flush Rimbaugh??

[1100s nut]

Originally Posted by cageyar

Waxman blows.

Cage...everyone blows but you dude! lol

[jduke]

If you listen to cage, anybody to the left of Hitler blows....

[1100s nut]

jduke, ha ha!!!!

mark, NHTSA is not gubmint owned. Its funded by a collective fund from Insurance companys.

Lane

[PFFOG]

Originally Posted by 1100s nut

Keep in mind Toyota has killed over 19 people with some of these issues....................

Lane

I am not sure this is true yet, the jury is still out. Audi was suppose to have killed a bunch in the 80's with their "unintended acceleration", but have since been totally vindicated, and the blame was put where it belonged, on inept drivers.

I can remember the public and political uproar when Audi came up with their fix and it was approved by the proper agencies, there was outrage that Audi was getting away with murder!! But guess what, that shift interlock they developed and is now standard on all automatic cars fixed the problem, by preventing driver ineptness.

[markjenn]

Originally Posted by 1100s nut

mark, NHTSA is not gubmint owned. Its funded by a collective fund from Insurance companys.

Well, it's a government agency, a part of the Department of Transportation just like the FAA. I think you're confusing NHTSA with Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS).

- Mark

[markjenn]

Originally Posted by 1100s nut

I hope for Toyota sake its not some of the same gas pedal problems Volvo has had. ETM "aka" fly by wire. I was part of a class action lawsuit...not for damages buy to fix a problem they did not want to take blame for. Mine failed....in traffic no warning just engine off. $900 dollar fix. These things were failing everywhere. Volvo said not not our problem. They dropped the ball. I have owned 4 volvo`s for business travel, great for business... customers don`t give you crap about them. No More, never. Dumped the s80 licked my wounds and bought a 530i, its a 2005 now with 127,000 miles and the only problem( I have all records from day one)...the seat memory needed to re-flashed. Not bad.

Completely anecdotal. For every story like this we have stories where BMW screwed someone and they had a great experience with Volvo. And the horror stories of BMW sweeping problems under the rug are legendary. If you think BMW is above the kind of problems that are plaguing Toyota right now, you're very mistaken.

- Mark

[markjenn]

Originally Posted by jduke

Mark, you been listening to Flush Rimbaugh??

No, and I have no idea if he has a position on this issue. But I pride myself on keeping an open mind and there are some things I think Rush is exactly right on, in the same vein that occasionally a blind squirrel finds a nut. Even a blind squirrel who is a flaming asshat.

- Mark

[1100s nut]

Originally Posted by markjenn

Well, it's a government agency, a part of the Department of Transportation just like the FAA. I think you're confusing NHTSA with Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS).

- Mark

I stand corrected...confussified my acronyms .

[1100s nut]

Originally Posted by markjenn

Completely anecdotal. For every story like this we have stories where BMW screwed someone and they had a great experience with Volvo. And the horror stories of BMW sweeping problems under the rug are legendary. If you think BMW is above the kind of problems that are plaguing Toyota right now, you're very mistaken.

- Mark

Maybe so....however I have a lot of family members and friends that drive them and don`t seem to have many problems. Of course I don`t know anyone driving BMW of economic reasons..myself included. They just drive good/solid. My opinion only.

Have a good weekend,
Lane