Saved another engine from IMS failure

[harryrcb]

2002 BOXSTER with 56777 miles
Caught just in time, my friend came in for a bumper repair and I peaked under the car to discover a slight oil seepage at the flywheel edge of the block, I convinced him to check it out. So he agreed to replace the IMS 2 weeks later, When I pulled it out I found the bearing although still in tact with no metal shavings anywhere and the seal still intact was indeed binding up. It was just a matter of time when that bearing would have failed. Clutch and flywheel were shot as well, so it all got replaced.
There was no obvious noise, just a slight seep of oil. Let this be a heads up if you have engine oil seeping out, don't procrastinate. A new or even used engine is a lot more expensive than the LN bearing.
I will upload pics later.

[big911fan]

What year Boxster was it and how many miles on the bearing? Thanks.

[harryrcb]

2002 BOXSTER with 56,777 miles

[ronster]

That was a mess, good work Harry!

[bar10dah]

Uh, where's your shop located?

[ShakinJoe]

Nice work Harry! Where you been?

You gonna be at Sebring in November?

[harryrcb]

Originally Posted by ronster

That was a mess, good work Harry!

You have no idea , the clutch had worn down to the rivets and all the clutch dust was mixed with the oil. acted like an oil dry but not quite the bellhousing was even in worse muck

Originally Posted by bar10dah

Uh, where's your shop located?

I just work out of my garage by appointment only but I had a big shop for almost 20 years 3 ex's ago. I'm now in New Port Richey, FL

Originally Posted by ShakinJoe

Nice work Harry! Where you been?
You gonna be at Sebring in November?

Hi Joe, have been busy saving engines from self destruct , have another one coming in a week. Unfortunately my beast has not gotten my attention for 3 or so months. I
'm totally frustrated but I gotta do what I gotta do.
Hopefull by years end I will have my monster boxster ready for Sebring. See you there

[intakexhaust]

Harry-
Looks like you have an assembly line of IMS R&R's or 'Save the Boxster' campaign going on!

Cheers - Scott

[derfo]

[QUOTE=harryrcb;6286517]2002 BOXSTER with 56777 miles
There was no obvious noise, just a slight seep of oil. Let this be a heads up if you have engine oil seeping out, don't procrastinate. A new or even used engine is a lot more expensive than the LN bearing.

Hi Harry

Am I missing something here ? or are you saying that if there is a slight oil leak in that area it could be a sign that the IMS is going to fail. If that is what you mean how can an oil leak be a sign that IMS could fail, I dont see the connection. I could see that it would be a sign that the seal on the IMS is failing or that the RMS is failing, as I say am I missing something?

[JFP in PA]

It is not at all unusual for a dying IMS bearing to start leaking oil. This is typically caused by the “death wobble” causing a leak around the center bolt.

[ronster]

Correct me if I'm wrong here JFP but the early IMS bearings were also a sealed bearing that had its own lubricant. Once the seal breaks down the lubricant is washed away by the motor oil and the motor oil then becomes the lubricant. As particulates build up in the oil they get into the bearing causing friction and wear that eventually causes the wobble. The problem is that the presence of oil can also indicate an RMS leak and you don't know which it is until the trans is removed and by then you might as well replace both the RMS and IMS.
LN has done away with a sealed bearing and recommends 3K or 5K mile oil changes to keep the oil lubricating the bearing as clean as possible.

[JFP in PA]

Pretty much correct, however, the question was “does the IMS leak when failing”, and the answer is sometimes “yes”. I would say less than 20% of the ones we pull are leaking at some level, some worse than others. All of the “leakers” were very loose and often noisy as well. At one point, Porsche was actually doing IMS bearing re sealing on cars still under warranty. But when a car starts showing signs of oil leakage in the bell housing area, there is no way to know if it is the IMS or the RMS until you pull it apart. Usually, only one of them is leaking, but sometimes both are. We have had cases of a dealer diagnosing the oil leak as the RMS, but whey we pulled the gear box we found a very bad IMS, while the RMS was bone dry. I know of one report of a car being serviced for what was suspected to be the usual RMS problem, but when disassembled they found the IMS is such bad condition that the center bolt easily came out trying to extract it to do the IMS upgrade. In another case, the owner heard a noise and shut the car off, only to find oil leaking out under the car. Towed to a shop, when they pulled the flywheel off, the IMS center bolt and nut fell onto the floor. Yes, they do leak…………..

[ronster]

My IMS was bone dry until it was pulled then some really nasty burned smelling oil came out of it and it was very slightly loose. I was told LN would test the bearing and let me know the outcome but I haven't heard from them so perhaps they got overwhelmed with old bearings. It would be interesting though to know what the outcome of the test was.

[Spiderhole]

Is it preventative to replace it on any higher mileage motor? Are the odd's in favor of destruction on all of them? How hard is it to get at it, and what is the procedure to replace?

[Iceman 29]

An interesting link about this matter and some responses..

Intermediate Shaft IMS Upgrade and Retrofit Kit for Porsche 911, Boxster, and Cayman models

[harryrcb]

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

Harry-
Looks like you have an assembly line of IMS R&R's or 'Save the Boxster' campaign going on!

Cheers - Scott

Sorry I got a little behind the eight ball, Thanks John for stepping in your experience with these is greater than mine. Scott yes they seem to be coming out of nowhere. Since this last one I did and with the results I found, two more people signed up for the change.

[QUOTE=derfo;6293491]

Originally Posted by harryrcb

2002 BOXSTER with 56777 miles
There was no obvious noise, just a slight seep of oil. Let this be a heads up if you have engine oil seeping out, don't procrastinate. A new or even used engine is a lot more expensive than the LN bearing.

Hi Harry

Am I missing something here ? or are you saying that if there is a slight oil leak in that area it could be a sign that the IMS is going to fail. If that is what you mean how can an oil leak be a sign that IMS could fail, I dont see the connection. I could see that it would be a sign that the seal on the IMS is failing or that the RMS is failing, as I say am I missing something?

As John said the bearing does not have to leak but if you have a leak you need to check it out. As it turned out on this one the bearing was binding when you try to rotate by hand. When you have tension on it form the cam chains and it is considerable tension under rpm you could get a wobble from the bearing that created the leak. Sometimes the bearing retainng bolts break sometimes they don't.

Originally Posted by Spiderhole

Is it preventative to replace it on any higher mileage motor? Are the odd's in favor of destruction on all of them? How hard is it to get at it, and what is the procedure to replace?

the only way to get at it is to pull the transmission and of course your clutch and flywheel and even then you may not be able to tell as in the one in this thread. you have to actually remove the bearing in order to tell if it is ok. by then you may as well just put in the LN bearing and be done with it. they not only have a different bearing but they beefed up the bolt that holds it and the cap the seals it.
what appears to be happening to these bearing in cars that are garage queens and or cars that are not driven as intended (quick) and the cars that don't get their oil changed between 3k and 5k are the ones that have the most probelms. with these cars just enought oil gets up in the shaft to wash the grease out of the "sealed" bearing but not enough to change it thouroghly. that's when you get the "smelly" oil that ron mention. those people who do DE's and autocrosses and drive daily spiritedly splash enough oil up the shaft to keep the bearing happy. This is only from my experience . I have drilled all my customers on their driving habits trying to establish some sort of pattern and this is what I came up with.

[newlife]

[QUOTE=harryrcb;6298628]Sorry I got a little behind the eight ball, Thanks John for stepping in your experience with these is greater than mine. Scott yes they seem to be coming out of nowhere. Since this last one I did and with the results I found, two more people signed up for the change.

Originally Posted by derfo

As John said the bearing does not have to leak but if you have a leak you need to check it out. As it turned out on this one the bearing was binding when you try to rotate by hand. When you have tension on it form the cam chains and it is considerable tension under rpm you could get a wobble from the bearing that created the leak. Sometimes the bearing retainng bolts break sometimes they don't.



the only way to get at it is to pull the transmission and of course your clutch and flywheel and even then you may not be able to tell as in the one in this thread. you have to actually remove the bearing in order to tell if it is ok. by then you may as well just put in the LN bearing and be done with it. they not only have a different bearing but they beefed up the bolt that holds it and the cap the seals it.
what appears to be happening to these bearing in cars that are garage queens and or cars that are not driven as intended (quick) and the cars that don't get their oil changed between 3k and 5k are the ones that have the most probelms. with these cars just enought oil gets up in the shaft to wash the grease out of the "sealed" bearing but not enough to change it thouroghly. that's when you get the "smelly" oil that ron mention. those people who do DE's and autocrosses and drive daily spiritedly splash enough oil up the shaft to keep the bearing happy. This is only from my experience . I have drilled all my customers on their driving habits trying to establish some sort of pattern and this is what I came up with.

Hi Harry,

Good post btw !

Harry is there any noise that may come from the engine compartment early on that may be an early warning signal for this type of failure? Is it a quiet ticking noise while in the car? Or would it be more obvious while standing outside/underneath the car while the motor is running/at idle? And what about while going through the gears? Will we hear anything?

Thanks Harry !

Rod

[harryrcb]

[QUOTE=newlife;6309496]

Originally Posted by harryrcb

Sorry I got a little behind the eight ball, Thanks John for stepping in your experience with these is greater than mine. Scott yes they seem to be coming out of nowhere. Since this last one I did and with the results I found, two more people signed up for the change.



Hi Harry,

Good post btw !

Harry is there any noise that may come from the engine compartment early on that may be an early warning signal for this type of failure? Is it a quiet ticking noise while in the car? Or would it be more obvious while standing outside/underneath the car while the motor is running/at idle? And what about while going through the gears? Will we hear anything?

Thanks Harry !

Rod

the quiet ticking noise you hear are most likely your injectors, they are quite loud. by the time you hear the bearing it is most likely too late although some guys have posted that they heard a squealing sound before the engine went kapow. Sometime you can hear a rattling sound which is not the bearing but rather the cam chains from having too much slack. I guess the most important thing you can do is keep a vigal eye out for oil leaks, check your oil filters for debris and of cousre any unusual sounds or just bite the bullet and install a new bearing.

[newlife]

[QUOTE=harryrcb;6309927]

Originally Posted by newlife

the quiet ticking noise you hear are most likely your injectors, they are quite loud. by the time you hear the bearing it is most likely too late although some guys have posted that they heard a squealing sound before the engine went kapow. Sometime you can hear a rattling sound which is not the bearing but rather the cam chains from having too much slack. I guess the most important thing you can do is keep a vigal eye out for oil leaks, check your oil filters for debris and of cousre any unusual sounds or just bite the bullet and install a new bearing.

Thank you Harry, much appreciated.

Rod

[telly888]

Very informative post! Thanks!

Just wondering whether replacing the engine will fix the IMS problem? Will that problem happen again?

I'm looking at a 2004 manufactured 997 which an engine changed by Porsche couple years ago. Should we avoid buying such kind of car?

Many thanks!