100 Years ago

[svandamme]

The Kaizer was getting comfortable in exile in the Netherlands


the Armistice had been signed to go in effect at 11 minutes past 11.
Troops were ordered to go on their last charge and for some their death.








Getting ready to go to Ypres center, town is flooded with Brits.
Its a beautiful day here, sun is out, not a cloud or hint of wind in sight.

At 10 there is the Poppy Parade, bands will march across town like they have done every years since 1918 (except during the Second WW) with drums and pipers sounding and echoing in the streets of our since then rebuilt/replica town.

Massive police, because as usual every politician worth his money and even more politicians not worth a cent will be under the Menin Gate along with other VIP's to "Remember"



It is now 8h59
George Edwin Ellison has half an hour to live, he will be the last Brit to die in anger on the battlefield

Augustin-Joseph Victorin Trébuchon the last Frenchman to die will do so at 10h45 just after the last Belgian, Marcel Terfve who got shot in the lung at 10h42, his last words to the stretcher barer : "I want to die standing".

The Last American, Henry Nicholas John Gunther got killed one minute before the Armistice at 10h59 a.m.


Odly enough ,the last Germans to die from hostile fire, were killed in June 1919, in Scapaflow when they had scuttled their ships laying captured there.
They had been stuck, prisoner there as skeleton crews for the ships and were not getting fed much... so they sank their ships just so they could move on and get back home.

They were shot as they were rowing in their lifeboats towards the shore because they were considered spies & saboteurs..

[pwd72s]

The war to end all war. Right....

[unclebilly]

When did the last Canadian die? Maybe they were considered as Brits?

Did the soldiers know the armistice had been signed and that the war was ending in a few hours? It makes me wonder about humanity if this was the case.

How did they communicate with the front lines that the war was over?

I’ve heard stories about gift exchanges with enemy soldiers in the trenches on a Christmas Day before. If this really happened, why didn’t they just lay down their guns after the armistice had been signed?

Another thing that shocks me, why isn’t November 11th a statutory Holliday in Europe (I have been in Scotland twice in November 11th) yet it is in North America?

[oldE]

10:58.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/george-price-first-world-war-last-soldier-killed-1.4898387

George Lawrence Price died on a Monday. It was a rainy day whose hours were almost evenly split between war and peace. And it was a terrible day to die.

That Monday marked both the end of the long suffering of the First World War, and of the Canadian private's short life. His premature death, just minutes shy of a tenuous peace, was no more or less tragic than that of countless others killed during the course of the war — or afterward, because of it.

But being the last Canadian and Commonwealth soldier to die in the war to end all wars — just as so many people were celebrating — lifted him out of almost-certain anonymity.

His death on Nov. 11, 1918, ultimately made him a symbol of the futility of conflict.

Best
Les

[svandamme]

back then Canada was British
But I overlooked that one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lawrence_Price#November_11,_1918
2 minutes before 11.

I've visited his grave in Sint Symphorien, he is buried just meters from the First British KIA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Parr_(British_Army_soldier)

Yes, they knew they had to cease fire at 11h
They did it anyway. They had orders, and somehow felt they could have one last bash before the cease fire.. So in part they are to blame as well. Anybody who still went out after 10AM, knew there was to be a stop at 11..
But it started with the Generals that wanted to keep pushing just to make sure. Pershing and the French were adamant in that.
They ran around 2500 casualties a day in those last days.


Christmas day was in 14 ,the true scope of that war hadn't set in yet.. by Dec 15 that illusional thinking was long gone.

It is a statutory holiday in Belgium& France. Obviously the Germans have little to celebrate.

Brits celebrate it on the sunday after I think. They call it Remembrance Day
Bankholidays are rarely on the day itself but either weekend after or monday after.

I would expect that life ground to a halt at 11 today for a moment of silence.
probably just as impressive to have a working day on cue go full quiet.

[svandamme]

There were way to many people, town was flooded.






Not more bands then usual, and because of the crowds no way to get closer.

It will be better next year when all the hoopla is over and we can return to regular programming for 11/11
eg bands, just minimum of people, and walk with the bands to the gate.

It still sounded great, the drums beating and echoing between the buildings is a magnificient thing to hear and feal... Brings Ypres to life

BOMBOM
BOMBOM

BOM
BOM
BOM

You hear that and yer feet want to start marching
Which is obviously intended purpose

[unclebilly]

This is a sombering read.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices-of-the-first-world-war-armistice

[svandamme]

There is a book called Happy Odysey, autobiography or Lt General sir Adrian Carton de Wiart.
Belgian turned British officer.
fought in every war between the Boer to WW2
Got wounded time and time again, lost eye, lost hand, shot in hip, in leg in back of the head,
of WW1 he said, after the short thrill of Victory, things got a bit boring
"Quite frankly I enjoyed the war"

It's not a bad read, the man himself got into a lot of things.
Comes across as a bit of General Melchett mixed up with leftenant George in Blackadder.

I recommend the read because if gives you an insight into the mind of the upper classes back then. That man could not have lived today, not in that way.

But his read gives you an idea of how WW1 could come about and why. The mindset was for a great deal "Sport&Glory".
and in the end it also gives some idea about how WW2 was different..

https://www.amazon.com/Happy-Odyssey-Adrian-Carton-Wiart/dp/1844155390

[ZOO]

Originally Posted by svandamme

back then Canada was British

Canada was part of the Commonwealth, but am also an independent fighting nation. This is a fascinating read based on the work of one of most noted historians. There are some interesting observations and comparisons to the US contributions to the war.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/canada-at-its-deadliest-the-epic-war-winning-battle-you’ve-never-heard-of/ar-BBPpaOG?ocid=spartanntp

This is interesting, too.

https://postmedia.us.janrainsso.com/static/server.html?origin=https%3A%2F%2Fnationalpost.com% 2Fopinion%2Fj-l-granatstein-this-nov-11-remember-canadas-heroic-100-days

[svandamme]

That link doesn't work for me, it just doesn't load.

Either way Canada got under from British Parliamentary rule in 1931
During the First World War they were British

[ZOO]

Originally Posted by svandamme

That link doesn't work for me, it just doesn't load.

Either way Canada got under from British Parliamentary rule in 1931
During the First World War they were British

Canada, like Newfoundland and ANZAC soldiers, fought as independent units. They may have been part of the overall command structure of the French and British, but to suggest they were British does a great disservice to their contributions.


I’ve added a second link.

[billybek]

Thanks to all our veterans on what is Remembrance Day here in Canada.

I am currently Reading Lawrance in Arabia by Scott Anderson. It is an interesting look at the incompetence of the military command of the day. It is amazing how little was thought about the tremendous casualty rate on both sides.

[svandamme]

Sorry, but up till this point I've never had anybody tell me that Canadians in WW1 were not British , or that it's a disservice or offensive thing to them to call them British at the time.

They are listed in all history books as British casualties along with NZ, Australian, Indian, South Africans.

There was only the British Army, there was no such thing as the Canadian Army back then.

Sure, they Enlisted for the Canadian Expeditionary Force, to go fight in the War that was Declared by the British.
Canada was a Dominion of the British Empire at the time and was automatically at war, it did not declare war itself.

And yes they fought as independant "units" because well you sign up in bunches, and they keep you together.. because people fight better if they form a cohesive unit and care for one another.
And it's easier to have similar minded and speaking folks together.. multicultural wasn't much of a word then.

Just as an example
2 out of 3 commanding Generals of the Canadian Corps duringthe War, were Englishmen.

1915–1916 General Sir Edwin Alderson born in Capel St Mary, a village in Suffolk
1916–1917 General Sir Julian Byng born in Wrotham Park, in Hertfordshire,
1917–1919 General Sir Arthur Currie born in Napperton, Ontario,

Now you might have strong nationalistic feelings and what not.
And fair enough if you do.

But the history books are clear, Canada and it's involvement in WW1 was a British thing.

The Commonwealth did not exist until 1931, when the Statute of Westminster 1931 was signed and Canada gained full Parliamentary self governing rights, with the exception of Constitutional law, that only came in the 1980ies.

That British Commonwealth only came about because of the 1926 Balfour declaration, which itself was a follow up from WW1

"... autonomous Communities within the British Empire, equal in status, in no way subordinate one to another in any aspect of their domestic or external affairs, though united by a common allegiance to the Crown, and freely associated as members of the British Commonwealth of Nations."

Before that, Canada was a British Dominion with limited self governance.
They were not "Free" as they had not fought a war of independence like the Americans had.
The Freedom of British Rule for Canada, the British Commonwealthc and what not is a result of WW1.

But there are no Canadian War Cemetaries here in Flanders.. They are all buried side by side with other British soldiers.
The cemetaries were designed, built and maintained by the Imperial War Graves Comission (later renamed Commonwealth War Graves Comission in 1961)

If we had been talking about WW2, you would have a point.
But in WW1 , Canada was British, Canadians in service were British soldiers.

[ZOO]

@svandamme

I understand the point you are making. And I would certainly accept that I am presenting my case from a sense of patriotism. But, respectfully, WW1 helped expose the “two solitudes” of Canada with the conscription crisis, and the division between French and English Canada over the war. French Canadians didn’t see themselves as British. Nor did the Indigenous people’s who fought (and often in the process losing all of their rights negotiated under treaties). Nor did the Chinese Canadians, who also endured massive racism but still volunteered to fight.

I Understand your use of British in the sense you’ve used it. But in Canada, I don’t think it would be the accepted understanding. Indeed, both VImy and Beaumont Hamel battlefields are Canadian parks. Not British ones . . .

Regardless, I appreciate your perspective, and your contribution to reminding us of the significance of this day.

[svandamme]

We have the same thing here in Belgium with Nationalists that want to device Belgium between Flanders(dutchspeaking) and Wallonie(french)..

And that movement got a lot of traction after WW1 as well.

But any Belgian Soldier who was died and buried during WW1 is and will always be a Belgian Soldier.

Vimy and Beaumont are Canadian Historic sites, given by France to use in perpetuity to Canada.
That does not mean that Canada wasn't British at the time.
the British empire had many countries in it.


Canada / British was not mutually exclusive in those days.
On the contrary, it was inclusive. If you had something Canadian then it was British by default.

That there were issues and feelings of resentment from French Canadians about being British, is basic proof that they were British at that time, they were subjects of the British rule ... Had they not been , they wuold not have had anything to resent.

[ZOO]

I think you are getting a bit confused. Britain could not create and pass legislation over Canada. But Canadian legislation, passed by Canadians, was subject to British review. That’s a marked difference.

No matter what flag one fought for, the cavalier disregard for human life based on nationalism and empire is appalling. Have you been to the German cemetery near Arras? I found that one most unsettling.

[svandamme]

Subject to review still means they could not do anything without approval.
granted there was a good understanding, they were not ruled with a hard hand.
But they were under British rule nevertheless.

Canada did not have a Minister of Foreign affairs in those days, that was handled in London.
There had only just been a new secretary for external affairs just before the war..

Not been to Arras yet. There is a German cemetary just 3 miles from my door.
They are quite different from British cemetaries.

The other one is St Symphorien wich is a CWWC managed cemetary built by the Germans.

[Tobra]

No offense intended to either of the folks making the lion's share of the responses. T.o our Canadian contributor, that is sort of like saying Arkansas National Guard troops fighting overseas are not Yanks, they are Razorbacks. They are both.

To our Flemish friend, the last guy killed in the Great War died in the 1940's.

I have knowledge of many of my relatives going to war, 1945 saw 5 of them giving their mother a reason to hang a star in the window, and they all came back. C'est incroyable.

May your Armistice and Veteran's Day be less filled with wildfire smoke than mine

[svandamme]

It's not the same, Razorbacks would still accept if somebody called em American.
It wouldn't be an insult to them to be named as part of the greater union.

Zoo implied that it is a disservice to call a Canadian KIA from WW1 a British soldier.. But in those days they very much were British.

WW1 was a catalyst for all kinds of national issues to manifest and change the individual states.
Russia and Germany got rid of their Kaizer, the Russians became communist, the Germans, well, they tried a bunch of things but eventually became Nazi's.
The Irish got their full independence.
Canada gained more autonomy then they already had before.
As did Australia , New Zealand, India took a bit longer, but the seedsbeen planted.
The Flemish till WW1 treated as peasants by the French speaking elite in Brussels formed the Flemish movment (now we outnumber the French speaking side, and the politicans would make you think the french part of the country is a bunch of unemployed strike happy union socialists )

This article explains it a lot more what WW1 did for Canada

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/a-changed-canada-emerged-from-the-first-world-war/article36985156/

But the point remains, in 14-18 , Canada was British, Canadian soldiers were British.
They were all part of the British Empire, for better or for ill.
It's not a disservice to be factual

I hope that blows over soon Tobra, stay safe

[ZOO]

Originally Posted by Tobra

No offense intended to either of the folks making the lion's share of the responses. T.o our Canadian contributor, that is sort of like saying Arkansas National Guard troops fighting overseas are not Yanks, they are Razorbacks. They are both.

Most Canadian historians, and subsequently most historically minded Canadians, understand that the contributions of Canada in WWI is the also the genesis of Canada as an autonomous nation from Britain. We funded our contribution at great expense, we endured the social consequences of decisions such as conscription, and we accomplished things in battle that other nations couldn't. The war changed Canada, and Canadians.

On this day of Remembrance, I think it is important to recognize that "British" is distinct from "Canadian" and "Australian" and "New Zealander", and "Newfoundlander". Not for nationalistic reasons, but because it allows us to see the truly global scope of the conflict.