Night flying Helicopter - no navigation lights?

[Aerkuld]

Here's the situation.
I take the dogs out into our backyard last night around 9pm. The back of our house looks out over the SF bay, high in the hills, with Oakland Airport roughly 7 miles ENE of us. Last night we had excellent visibility, no cloud.
I could hear a helicopter approaching from the direction of the bay heading NW which would likely have crossed the approach to the main runway for the south field of Oakland (runway 12/30?). It would definitely cross the approach to the north field runways. I could hear it approach, heard it fly over, and could hear it fly off to the NW, but I couldn't see it. Nothing.
I would be very difficult to see any aircraft at night without lights. I suppose it's possible I didn't see what was plainly there, but I watch aircraft a lot here and can pick out their position pretty reliably. With this one, even scanning the sky in front of and around the likely location, I couldn't see anything. Not a biggie, but it got me thinking -
Would an aircraft be allowed to fly in this area with no navigation lights? Under what circumstances is this allowed?
Just curious.

[Seahawk]

It depends.

Military helo? Probably not...there is no MOA or restricted area for them to be lights off, even on goggles. There is also so much ambient light that I cannot imagine being goggled up.

Police is more likely and I guarantee the were talking to a bunch of folks to stay out of trouble...especially Oakland approach and tower. They were no doubt being "painted" like you read about.

I can say I was never more uncomfortable, day or night, flying in the Bay Area "Bowl": The lights, terrain, refraction off the water, the amount of traffic is insane.

My favorite traffic call of all time, I was flying into NAS Alameda, was from Oakland Approach or Center: "Island Ruler 25, traffic at your 12 o'clock, your altitude, one mile..."

Huh?

[Noah930]

I had a different experience a many years back. I was driving through Lancaster, on my way up to Mammoth one night. I could see something with bright lights flying low over the ground. Maybe a helicoptor, because of the relatively slow speed? It came from the 2 o'clock direction and passed directly overhead--as in, if it were on the ground (or I were in the sky) we would have hit each other. I'm guessing it flew over me at about 50 feet of altitude, though I know how that can be an inaccurate guess from my perspective. Either way, it was low. I heard nothing.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Noah930

I had a different experience a many years back. I was driving through Lancaster, on my way up to Mammoth one night. I could see something with bright lights flying low over the ground. Maybe a helicoptor, because of the relatively slow speed? It came from the 2 o'clock direction and passed directly overhead--as in, if it were on the ground (or I were in the sky) we would have hit each other. I'm guessing it flew over me at about 50 feet of altitude, though I know how that can be an inaccurate guess from my perspective. Either way, it was low. I heard nothing.

Or Airwolf in whisper mode.

[Ayles]

You should try the FlightRadar24 app. I have it loaded with alerts for Washington State Patrol planes, so it tells me when/where they are doing speed enforcement via airplane.

But, it does give you stats on what's flying. If its Military or the like it won't have much info other than altitude and speed. But police and private will have loads of information.

[GH85Carrera]

One of my buddies dad's flew B-52s in the 60s. They had to build time as pilots, so the Air Force sent them out to fly around wherever, day and night.

He said they were all bored 20 something guys flying this monster big aircraft around in the middle of nowhere, TX. At night they could see a lone pair of headlights going along a road, and they would drop down to 100 feet, and turn on all the lights, and fly right over the top of the poor farmer driving down some farm road. They all laughed and really enjoyed watching the farmer drive off into the desert from the fright of a B-52 flying right over.

He said years later as an old man he felt bad about it, but it was funny at the time.

[Tobra]

I could see driving off the road if that happened. B-52 is big, and LOUD. That would shake your vehicle like a leaf.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

It depends.

Military helo? Probably not...there is no MOA or restricted area for them to be lights off, even on goggles. There is also so much ambient light that I cannot imagine being goggled up.

Police is more likely and I guarantee the were talking to a bunch of folks to stay out of trouble...especially Oakland approach and tower. They were no doubt being "painted" like you read about.

I can say I was never more uncomfortable, day or night, flying in the Bay Area "Bowl": The lights, terrain, refraction off the water, the amount of traffic is insane.

My favorite traffic call of all time, I was flying into NAS Alameda, was from Oakland Approach or Center: "Island Ruler 25, traffic at your 12 o'clock, your altitude, one mile..."

Huh?

That's got to make a bit of poo come out.

[rfuerst911sc]

Kobe Bryant's pilot back from the dead ? 😋

[nota]

customs does that kind of stupid stuff and or INS or DEA
one idiot decide to hide 10 ft over a marina full of liveaboards
the damm black choppers are real in s fl
so are the mystery black boats with no lights

[stevej37]

[911boost]

My vote is it was Blue Thunder.

[flatbutt]

"Whisper mode" has always intrigued. Does it actually exist?

[Bill Douglas]

Should have sent a cheap drone up to take some close up photos.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by nota

customs does that kind of stupid stuff and or INS or DEA
one idiot decide to hide 10 ft over a marina full of liveaboards
the damm black choppers are real in s fl
so are the mystery black boats with no lights

Yeah, but in S FL, those are probably as likely to be the bad guys as the good guys. hahaha

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

"Whisper mode" has always intrigued. Does it actually exist?

No.

The biggest sound generation from a helo is the aero noise from the main rotor blades interacting with the tail rotor. Very noisy.

I worked on Comanche Program and they went Fenestron tail rotor. I loved that aircraft. The best cockpit I have ever sat in.



Tail rotor from the bin Laden raid:



I have no idea.

You can quiet them, but helos will never be "Stealth". These type f articles make me smile:

https://www.popsci.com/story/technology/osama-bin-laden-raid-anniversary-stealth-helicopters/

[masraum]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

"Whisper mode" has always intrigued. Does it actually exist?

seahawk could tell you but then he'd have to kill you.

[BK911]

Never say never Seahawk.
Once some of the advanced technology is uncovered from the pyramids frozen below Antarctica!

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by BK911

Never say never Seahawk.

Oh, I never do!

VTOL has the grace of that unique dance, but it requires a symphony of sound to accomplish.

The Comanche had the best Human Factors designer for the cockpit on the planet. The simulator was at the factory in Bridgeport and I spent probably 300 hours in it with the designer.

[sc_rufctr]

I live about 10 minutes from the Police Academy and helicopters without lights at night often fly over my house. My neighbor is a cop and he told me it was part of the training for new recruits - They switch the lights off while the recruits and pilots are using night vision goggles.

The main Air Port is also about 25 minutes from my house and they don't fly anywhere near it. On occasion they also use a really bright spot light when chasing a speeder or someone on the ground.

BTW: The murder clearance rate locally is about 90%!