Exploring and old house

[KFC911]

Retirememt: The only job Patrick ever sucked at....if not this one....next!

Sucker

Cool house...just imagine what it once was. I'm sure you have....sucker

[wdfifteen]

^^
Nah, fixing old houses is MrsWD’s thing. I still have work to do on the house we’re living in and I’m having trouble finding motivation to do it. This coming year is going to be spent on my cars. My goal by the end of summer is to have all 7 drivable. No time or interest in hammer and nail work.

[KFC911]

My best friend's mom has restored several (3-4 at least) 100 yr old historical mansions in Jax, Fl. She's a glutton fer punishment and can't stop....well into her 70s

The work required is mind boggling....

[onewhippedpuppy]

That’s really cool! I’m another that would love to know the story. How does what was once a beautiful large and expensive house become totally abandoned and fall into such a state? There has to be a story associated with that.

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

That’s really cool! I’m another that would love to know the story. How does what was once a beautiful large and expensive house become totally abandoned and fall into such a state? There has to be a story associated with that.

I think that it might happen pretty often, especially within wealthy families. Fashion and circumstance change and the heirs would be able to afford to ignore and abandon expensive homes that wage slaves like us would want try and make a go of. Or, maybe the upkeep is too much for a third generation family member where the interest on the family fortune isn't keeping up with the times...

Here's one story -

JR Simplot, the potato magnate, built a mansion on top of a hill in Boise, but he built it late in his life after all his kids were grown; after a time, it became impractical for him so he moved into a downtown Boise apartment (Insert small-town downtown jokes here!).

None of the family members were interested in living in the mansion, so he offered it to the state of Idaho with the idea that it would become the Governors mansion. That didn't work out at all and so the bulldozers came and scraped it off the top of the hill leaving only an enormous American flag to mark the spot. The Simplot fortune provides upkeep for a greenspace and flag maintenance in memory of the spud king.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

That’s really cool! I’m another that would love to know the story. How does what was once a beautiful large and expensive house become totally abandoned and fall into such a state? There has to be a story associated with that.

I think Mike hit on it. A family gets rich and builds a mansion, but the heirs go about their separate ways. One kid stays home and farms the family farm, but he's stuck with a 100 year old mansion that is too big for his family ( 20+ rooms) ONE bathroom, and badly outdated mechanicals. It's cheaper to build a house that suits his needs.
Why he didn't just sell it is a mystery. Why he doesn't sell it now for salvage is likewise a mystery.

[speeder]

I spent years working on very old houses, some historically significant. As others have alluded to, it's usually a massive undertaking. From the first photos on this thread, I could tell that this house is worth about negative $100k, (or whatever the cost of demolition and haul-away is around there).

The term, "historically significant" is misused and misunderstood quite a bit. Nearly anything old might be historically significant to someone, (like a person who once lived in the house or whose ancestors did). This does not necessarily translate into being significant to the world at large.

The location alone of this place, in the middle of nowhere in rural Ohio on a farm, means that it would have to be an early FLW house or similar to have any significance and value. It is a fairly ordinary if large and fancy house for the time. It would need to be sitting in Greenwich Village in NYC to be worth reviving. And if it was, the dirt it's sitting on would be worth $50 million and it would be scraped. No sale.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by look 171

I rebuilt a Greene and Greene about 14 years ago that was in similar condition. The area turned into a rat hole and the owner rented to a lot of people all living in there at the same time. New owner bought it during early stage of gentrification and hired us to redo it. Fun, but lost lots of hair over it due to the historical folks getting in the way.

After so many years I still get a little excited restoring a mess like that. A project like that must have the right crew who like taking apart the little sihts, rebuilt them and putting them back. Not many trades guys like to do that. If that house was in LA, once restored, it would be sold within a couple weeks.


Hey, I know, sell a couple of early cars and sink it into it and drain your bank account too.

Originally Posted by look 171

Those fukers came out and begged me to let them be involve. I pushed back with a vengeance. I want them off my tail but they kept telling me that my company name will be in this and that publications. Screw that, but the dumb ass owner's wife wanted fame so they let em' in to document the built. I researched so much about those architects and did as much as I can out of my shop to build windows and a couple of simple doors. Still I can't seem to satisfy them. They complained about the thickness of the door casing and base board. They btiched about the metal drawer slides instead of old fashion wood on wood slides. We bought 4/4" stock and ripped the to a specific width to match, but those guys wanted a true 7/8" instead of 3/4" so they gave me a hard time. I said, if you are willing to pay for it, fine, I can mill out whatever will make them smile, by then the owner was tired of them so we stuck with 3/4" base and case. WE changed out the typical turn of the century faucet to a modern one. One that you can actually use. The old was a hot faucet on the left, another on the right. Not very user friendly. This older lady caught that and was just about had a siht fit over it. She demanded that I have those siht#y faucets rebuilt and re-chrome. What a bunch of jobless, useless people. I don't think any of those guys any mentioned my name anywhere. Thank goodness for that or else all the nut jobs will be calling me to fix their leaking turn of the century toilets or their period correct switch.


Keep em' away as far as you can

With all due respect, you don't sound like the guy who should be working on a house like that. There are many diffrerent areas of trade and specialization within the construction industry and while you may be good at what you normally do, this is the work for restoration specialists. Restoration is very different from construction; one builds new things and the other fixes and restores old things. I have always found that very few people in construction understand anything about restoration or even value it.

A G&G house is like an old Ferrari or a Pre-A 356, if I had to use an automotive analogy. Just as most people who work on cars for a living have no respect for originality and simply replace parts or think that they are "improving" an old car w modifications, most old Craftsman and architecturally significant houses have been ruined over the years by modification. Plenty of old cars that were special as well.

This is why truly original C2 Corvettes or G&G houses that somehow have escaped the butcher's hand are so valuable. Sorry for all of the car comparisons but houses and cars are both obsessions of mine and I am a restoration guy. The right person to work on either would have no issue w preservation people and in fact would go to the ends of the earth to keep things correct. If I told you the stories of searching architectural salvage yards for old windows to harvest glass from for a 1915 house project in Minneapolis, (glass from the later 1920s or 30s will not do, they changed the manufacturing process), you would think I'm crazy. You would not understand.

I have an acquaintance here in Los Angeles that is the pre-eminent guy for restoring Lautner houses. Not coincidentally, he owns several concours level collector sports and racing cars that he regularly drives. A mint, original '73 Carrera RS is probably the least valuable and most mundane of his cars. He understands and reveres the craftsmanship and artistry of a bygone era of construction and design. No detail is too small in his projects.

There are jobs for everyone when it comes to housing around here w the demand.

[speeder]

I meant to post this:

https://www.latimes.com/business/realestate/hot-property/la-fi-hp-home-20190126-story.html

[cabmandone]

One thing I've noticed is that some farmers are a bit weird about selling any land. They'd rather the house go to waste than have a stranger living in a home they would have to farm around.

[Por_sha911]

speeder makes a good point. Too many folks see an old home and think about how cool it would be... but don't understand
1) the true cost of bringing it up to modern comfort or,
2) the true cost of restoring one that has significance.

The problem is when someone just wants a nice old house and then gets ambushed by the hysterical, um, I mean, historical society that suddenly decides this home is significant.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

speeder makes a good point. Too many folks see an old home and think about how cool it would be... but don't understand
1) the true cost of bringing it up to modern comfort or,
2) the true cost of restoring one that has significance.

The problem is when someone just wants a nice old house and then gets ambushed by the hysterical, um, I mean, historical society that suddenly decides this home is significant.

This ambush often happens because of pride.

Someone thinks the prestige in social circles of being able to say "historic home" comes without disadvantages.

Then reality arrives.

Ambush indeed.

[Por_sha911]

So the moral of the story is due diligence before you jump into a project and have that 'uh oh" moment.

[Racerbvd]

Watch The Money Pit.
https://youtu.be/9yUtwutoW0Q

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by look 171

Those fukers came out and begged me to let them be involve. I pushed back with a vengeance. I want them off my tail but they kept telling me that my company name will be in this and that publications. Screw that, but the dumb ass owner's wife wanted fame so they let em' in to document the built. I researched so much about those architects and did as much as I can out of my shop to build windows and a couple of simple doors. Still I can't seem to satisfy them. They complained about the thickness of the door casing and base board. They btiched about the metal drawer slides instead of old fashion wood on wood slides. We bought 4/4" stock and ripped the to a specific width to match, but those guys wanted a true 7/8" instead of 3/4" so they gave me a hard time. I said, if you are willing to pay for it, fine, I can mill out whatever will make them smile, by then the owner was tired of them so we stuck with 3/4" base and case. WE changed out the typical turn of the century faucet to a modern one. One that you can actually use. The old was a hot faucet on the left, another on the right. Not very user friendly. This older lady caught that and was just about had a siht fit over it. She demanded that I have those siht#y faucets rebuilt and re-chrome. What a bunch of jobless, useless people. I don't think any of those guys any mentioned my name anywhere. Thank goodness for that or else all the nut jobs will be calling me to fix their leaking turn of the century toilets or their period correct switch.


Keep em' away as far as you can

Might be making a wrong assumption but you sound like more of a 'knock em up cheap' type builder to me and not having the attention to detail needed to sympathetically restore an older property

What is right to you isn't always right for the customer

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by cabmando

One thing I've noticed is that some farmers are a bit weird about selling any land. They'd rather the house go to waste than have a stranger living in a home they would have to farm around.

I see that too. Makes no sense to me, but it happens a lot.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

Might be making a wrong assumption but you sound like more of a 'knock em up cheap' type builder to me and not having the attention to detail needed to sympathetically restore an older property

What is right to you isn't always right for the customer

I would say that given how the customer decided to use shaved 2x4's that the customer wasn't all into spending that much either.

I think the customer fell for something without realizing the cost and restriction.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

Might be making a wrong assumption but you sound like more of a 'knock em up cheap' type builder to me and not having the attention to detail needed to sympathetically restore an older property

What is right to you isn't always right for the customer

For the Greene and Greene or Chemosphere? Chemosphere has an unlimited budget, so we brought in all sort of specialist. Some days, it seemed like a crime scene with people and their little brushes cleaning and doing their thing to preserve important things. The Greene and Greene's home owner's plan was to live in it and he had to come under a certain budget, so the amount of money dictated how and where to spend it wisely. For example, we talked from the beginning about having tiles made for the fireplace and all the woodwork would come out of my shop. The baseboard and casing would be purchased, ripped down and edges eased to match existing using 3/4" clear pine and painted. Owner agreed due to the difference of 7000+ dollars compared to using vertical grain Douglas Fir like they did 100 years ago only to be painted over and 1/8" thinker. All were replace to be uniform. From 2' away, you can't tell unless it was measured. A second floor was added on back in the 50s and it was not done very well, so a lot of the money was spend on putting back all the Craftsman details to match the lower floor. Correct hardware were refinished but not many were left due to years of abuse.

Its not a car restoration where the original or correct parts must be used for concourse judges. This is not the gamble house, a museum with unlimited budget. The architect, myself and the client decided to have the tiny kitchen enlarged to modern standard so its usable but keeping or replicating all the original details. There's no way I would rewiring that house with knob and tube, have the toilet in your face as soon as you walked into the bath just to satisfy original details. Back then, having indoor plumbing was for the wealthy, so designers needed to show it off, so it was put near the entry to a bath room. We were not having that, so if you are talking restoring it to the original 100%, no this is not the house. It must flow well by today's standard because people have to live in it. I did, however drove to Las Vegas to bring back gallons of oil base floor finish so it will patina the same as the original over time. We milled the floor for all of the upstairs to match the existing. I made a Craftsman lamp with stain glass, a similar copy from the Gamble house for the Dinning Room.

Its easy for the historical Nazis to say or point fingers but someone's has to pay for it. It sure as hell wasn't them, I can assure you. On that house, another 150k could be sunk into it and it will all disappear into the very minor details where 95% of the general public would never see it. For example, we decided to replace the rotten beams by using an engineering beam instead vertical grain Doug Fir under the house like the original. Oh yeah, the historical folks called me out on that too but its on the approved plans yet they made a bunch of noise about that. We all know its much stronger and it will never be seen unless one goes under the house.

These jobs are never about me, its budget driven, always.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by speeder

I meant to post this:

https://www.latimes.com/business/realestate/hot-property/la-fi-hp-home-20190126-story.html

I know the exact location of that house. We look at it and researched a few of their homes as much as we could before we started construction. One day out of the year, those private old homes in Pasadena are open to the public and tours are given to small groups. I am not sure if they still do it anymore? I also did a lot of work to a big Spanish about 2 block away back around that time.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by speeder

With all due respect, you don't sound like the guy who should be working on a house like that. There are many diffrerent areas of trade and specialization within the construction industry and while you may be good at what you normally do, this is the work for restoration specialists. Restoration is very different from construction; one builds new things and the other fixes and restores old things. I have always found that very few people in construction understand anything about restoration or even value it.

A G&G house is like an old Ferrari or a Pre-A 356, if I had to use an automotive analogy. Just as most people who work on cars for a living have no respect for originality and simply replace parts or think that they are "improving" an old car w modifications, most old Craftsman and architecturally significant houses have been ruined over the years by modification. Plenty of old cars that were special as well.

This is why truly original C2 Corvettes or G&G houses that somehow have escaped the butcher's hand are so valuable. Sorry for all of the car comparisons but houses and cars are both obsessions of mine and I am a restoration guy. The right person to work on either would have no issue w preservation people and in fact would go to the ends of the earth to keep things correct. If I told you the stories of searching architectural salvage yards for old windows to harvest glass from for a 1915 house project in Minneapolis, (glass from the later 1920s or 30s will not do, they changed the manufacturing process), you would think I'm crazy. You would not understand.

I have an acquaintance here in Los Angeles that is the pre-eminent guy for restoring Lautner houses. Not coincidentally, he owns several concours level collector sports and racing cars that he regularly drives. A mint, original '73 Carrera RS is probably the least valuable and most mundane of his cars. He understands and reveres the craftsmanship and artistry of a bygone era of construction and design. No detail is too small in his projects.

There are jobs for everyone when it comes to housing around here w the demand.

I cut my teeth around those old home in Pasadena doing their woodwork and finish carpentry during college. Moving on to small remodels that grew into much larger ones. We did nothing but rehabbing grand old homes for 10 years then the economy kick everyone's butt and people stop spending. We did 9 grand old homes in 8 years, all were in Pasadena but one. While they aren't as intense as having to look for period correct glass like you did, sometimes it isn't possible and it can't made. The job must move forward people needed to move in. These jobs take 3 times as long and 10 times more complex, with blown budgets, always, but still they need to get done and within a reasonable amount of money. From your description, only few owners or houses out of a thousand have the time and budget luxury. Chemosphere was one. I much rather work on those because there's no time nor budget constrain making it a lot less stressful.

Old Ferrari, G and G or not, the owner's pocket always have the say so and how deep of a restore they want to go. 15-20 years ago, 700 k was a lot of money spent on a remodel on a home worth 1 mil+. I chased after them because it was fun, and I discovered that I was up to the task. I moved on to the west side during that time working for a bunch of movie folks and most I come across weren't interested in restoring old homes but love the shiny new designer stuff. That kept us going for many years and much easier to control. I am getting done with them too and slowly moving back into Pasadena and La Canada due to west side traffic. I am not really interested in restoring an old house anymore, unlike before I was chasing fame within that community. Depending on the owner and the designer, ofcourse. I still do some work in Los Feliz and Silverlake. Maybe I will run into you sometimes.

Which Lauther house did your friend restore? There's a Lauther house within walking distance from my home and I love to restore that to the teeth. Its in pretty bad shape. Since I am out of the loop, they would never hire me.