braking vibration, warped "hubs"

[T77911S]

we have a 2013 pilot, 50k miles on it and when you hit the brakes the front end vibrates. (pedal) like warped rotors.
i was going to change the rotors but when i pulled the wheel off the rotors look new. (we just bought it about 10k miles ago). so i left them on and have been trying to research brake problems with honda pilot. i found this site and thought it very interesting but i am looking for more advise on this.

https://www.brakeandfrontend.com/brake-job-2009-2015-honda-pilot/


i did check the run out and it "appears" to be .0015 on one side and .0015 or maybe .002 on the other.
so i pulled the rotors and thought i would clean up the flanges to make sure the rotors were seated.
i tried to measure the run out on the flanges but i am not sure my reading was accurate as when i would turn the hub (or rotor) i am not shure there is play that is giving me that bad readings.

is there a chance the hubs themselves could be warped and if i read the site correctly the problem will just come back in a few thousand miles.
i have read posts where guys have replaced the rotors and the problem comes back so i wonder if this is why

the hub flange materiel looked pretty thin to me.

[javadog]

Hubs can be a problem. In the 1980's, when I ran the service department of a Honda dealership, people that over-torqued the wheels on Hondas would damage them, leading to brake issues. We had a brake rotor hone that we could mount on each front suspension corner that would hone the rotors while they were attached to the hubs, thereby making the rotors run true, as installed.

You can check the runout on the backside of the rotors and see if it's the same, and in the same locations as the runout on the front side. That will tell you if the hub is the problem.

[cabmandone]

Did you check ball joints while you had that tire off? I had a car that would vibrate under breaking and it ended up being a ball joint.

[cstreit]

Thats not enough to be noticeable.

Anything less than about .003" is well within tolerances for even rotors. You don't start to feel it until about 0.007"

I'd look for your problem elsewhere. Did you change anything recently? Pads, rotors, etc..? How are your ball joints and tie rod ends?

[Dansvan]

It’s the rotors. If it was the hub you’d feel it all the time.

[icemann427]

All really good information and advice here. Not sure mine is worth the 15 seconds it took me to type this but if it has a steering dampener, check to see if that is worn out.

[faverymi]

Check the inside of the rotor.

I had a lot of pad transfer that wasn't noticeable until disassembly

[vash]

You can’t readily see a warped rotor.

[cstreit]

Originally Posted by faverymi

Check the inside of the rotor. I had a lot of pad transfer that wasn't noticeable until disassembly

THis is the MOST common cause. Thats why I asked about changing any parts recently... ...because it shouldn't happen to well used/broken in rotors and pads. (Though this can happen after a panic stop and long soak)

https://alconkits.com/technical-info/brake-tech/56-the-myth-of-warped-brake-discs

https://alconkits.com/support/brake-pad-info/110-the-real-truth-about-warped-brake-rotors

[911 Rod]

Originally Posted by faverymi

Check the inside of the rotor.

I had a lot of pad transfer that wasn't noticeable until disassembly

I hear this is a problem with the new type of pads. When you hold down the brake when you come to a stop after heating them up.

[T77911S]

thanks chris, i really loved that reading.

i am going to take a little more time just to check the run out before i do anything else.

we had this problem almost from the time we got it, and i did change pads a while back.


after reading what chris posted i wonder if i caused the problem when i test drove it.
of course i had to do a brake check as some cars we looked at the brakes were not too good, trust me, my wife needs the best brakes i can give her.
so if the brakes were new when i tested it i could have over heated and caused improper bedding.

[cstreit]

Here is what we use to "reset" in this case:

https://www.amazon.com/3M-01410-Surface-Conditioning-Starter/dp/B00063V0XC

It is important NOT to use any Silicon based abrasive on discs, as this embeds in the surface and often makes the problem worse later. Use garnet or Aluminum Oxide.

[porsche tech]

Replace the rotors. Very common problem. We have an Odyssee that had to have them turned at 25k under warranty. Same problem again at 50k and I replaced them with Centrics aftermarket...90k on it now and still fine. Honda actually came out with a new style rotor that has ventilation slots on the hat part of the disc to try to help dissipate the heat. Check the Honda forums...it's all over them.--Dave

[cstreit]

Originally Posted by porsche tech

Replace the rotors. Very common problem.

THis will likely solve it. I assume they are cheap. If not, resurface them with the Roloc's....

Just bed them in properly.

https://alconkits.com/support/install-tips/30-how-to-bed-in-your-brake-pads


Our rotors are $1000/pair so usually "just replace them" isn't an option for most customers. On an econo-car they're probably $100....

[cstreit]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

Things i have learned from the University of Hard Knocks.
The Chinese version of knock-off parts falls off rather rapidly.
A wheel bearing a Honda will go way over a 100K. The ones from lAPS will go about 10K.
Serious.

In my experience, the *majority* of rotors are made in China these days. I have tons of photos of the carnage from these rotors sent to us by customers weekly.

[John Rogers]

I had this issue with my Chevy HHR and did the rotor check. checked the various bolts and finally found the bushings at the rear of the suspension A-arms had broken and that was causing the shake. I got new suspension parts from Rock Auto on line and it took me a while to replace them as I am getting old now days. Not thinking ahead I did the work on a Saturday but was able to find a shop that was open and did the alignment for me.

Was sort of like the front bushings in a 914 with that molded in rubber bushing, same thing, same symptoms.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by cabmando

Did you check ball joints while you had that tire off? I had a car that would vibrate under breaking and it ended up being a ball joint.

+1 Drop lower control arm onto a block taking spring pressure off of joint. Get a pry bar in there and try to move it.

Also, I have been fooled by bad rear brakes and thought it was the front.

I have seen one official warped set of front rotors. They were 0.020" out. Ten times what yours are out. Lincoln Navigator that pulled a decent sized boat. Argued with the guy (before checking) as I have read Chris' links before but he said it had happened before.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by javadog

You can check the runout on the backside of the rotors and see if it's the same, and in the same locations as the runout on the front side. That will tell you if the hub is the problem.

That is a good tip.

May have to pull caliper as dust covers are pretty comprehensive as to coverage.

[Bill Douglas]

Another thing to look into. This happened on a Toyota, but same difference...

The caliper has a piston on one side and to give even pressure on the rotor the other pad slides left or right on steel pins. These pins can rust or get stuck from brake dust. Make sure they are sliding OK or one pad can get semi stuck on the rotor causing the chatter or vibration.

[Iciclehead]

Been there, done that...definitely not a hub problem, most likely is brake pad buildup.

Do several maximum braking stops in a row, if the situation improves as it did in my case, then you have your answer

Dennis