Portable Generator

[red-beard]

You can't just "join" two units, unless they are setup to be connected and sync.

If you want a propane or dual fuel generator, I suggesting buying one that is designed that way.

https://www.championpowerequipment.com/product/100264-3500-watt-dual-fuel-inverter/

This one is also designed to sync its output with another unit to allow 240VAC operation.

Split phase transfer switches do not switch the neutral. The Neutral is grounded at the breaker box or service entry. So it is not going to transmit power beyond the transfer switch.

This is the system bypass I generally use. It is unfused, so you will need to have a subpanel with a breaker. It is a three-way switch, you feed the utility power on one side, the generator feed on the other and the middle is the output to your sub-panel or service.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-100-Amp-240-Volt-Non-Fused-Emergency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10323R/100171587

There is a 200A version which should cover whole house for most people.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-Amp-240-Volt-Non-Fused-Emergency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10324R/100150463

Your idea for #2 is very normal for 120V installations. You feed both side of the 240V panel from the 120V single phase source. If you hook up a 240V appliance, absolutely nothing will work, except if it has some portions that are 120V (i.e. lights). This is quite normal on 120V 30A RVs

BTW, there are 120V 30A single phase AUTOMATIC transfer switches around for RVs.

[Crowbob]

I'm thinking at absolute minimum in a crisis you could get by with running a whole house gererator for only 4 hours/day. Two hours in the morning and two hours around dinnertime. That would keep the fridges operational, run the well pump, recharge batteries and electrically heat up some water twice per day.

My thinking is during an emergency extended power-outage I can adjust my comfort tolerance way up if I had to. It doesn't make sense to me to pretend to live like normal during an emergency. That requires tremendous energy consumption. I have no fear of huddling around a small propane catalytic heater if it keeps us from freezing to death.

[hcoles]

red-beard,
Thanks for the info. I'm already $1,200 in with the Honda 2200i, so I'll just need to get the best propane conversion I can find. I agree, the best would be to get a generator designed for dual-fuel.

Good comments on feeding both buss bars with one phase. It seems that is okay as you mention. I don't see why that wouldn't work - the neutral should not get overloaded as it won't be more than the live wire is supplying.
Also good tip to look at RV sites to find 120V transfer switches that have only one phase. That could resolve the issue in general.

[hcoles]

red-beard, et al.,
More digging on the internet.... looks like Reliance and Generac cover the vast bulk of the market for transfer switches. Both have many unfavorable reviews with regard to responding to issues or questions after purchase. I'm now looking at APC. One question on the APC - how does it work when the power goes out while you are getting the generator going?

[red-beard]

Kohler and Generac have the majority of the market.

The automatic transfer switches are generally deigned to work with a specific companies whole house generator. I would not suggest mixing and matching.

Most of the ATS units have a solenoid circuit. If the circuit sees power on the Utility side, it will switch to the Utility system. If the utility power is off AND the ATS sees power from the generator, it will switch to the generator.

By APC, are you meaning a battery based system?

[hcoles]

I'm referring to APC Universal Transfer Switch 6-Circuit 120V. When configured in semi-automatic mode it will start and run when the generator is started. This unit was suggested by one of the propane kit companies when I asked. A UPS can be added (in addition to the generator) but as I understand the instructions it is not required.
I like the intelligence that can be programmed in - e.g. turn off the refrigerator for a bit while the microwave is turned on etc. etc. Of course it depends on how the house circuits are set up.
There is mention of an APC generator but it doesn't seem like a requirement - I think almost any generator with 120V output will work. I'll check with APC if I go this way. APC knows what they are doing - I worked with them in my last job.
I'd like to know what you think about this APC unit.
Thanks.

[red-beard]

https://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Universal-Transfer-Switch-6-Circuit-120V/P-UTS6

Seems kind of expensive for a maximum of 20A.

This seems interesting

https://amazon.com/dp/B07J5JXFGH/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?pd_rd_i=B07JVBZB2Q&pd_rd_w=3SAqh&pf_rd_p=45a72588-80f7-4414-9851-786f6c16d42b&pd_rd_wg=CS9tG&pf_rd_r=6766SGQJXFJFG5NX4XK9&pd_rd_r=728c5b7a-3059-4c70-a728-7f5492face90&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzQlFNOFVIR1lNM1U3J mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjk2NjI0MzdMTllCT1VQWk5BTyZlbmN yeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzI1MjAwVUsyRzZURzFXT1U3JndpZGdld E5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmR vTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

Here is a very good small universal 30A 120V ATC

https://amazon.com/WFCO-Electronics-T-30-Automatic-Transfer/dp/B00B2AUZZC/ref=pd_cp_263_4/135-5984253-8195718?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00B2AUZZC&pd_rd_r=1e16b7d0-d60d-4801-9060-26c8db562a7a&pd_rd_w=OtfUt&pd_rd_wg=31UpO&pf_rd_p=0e5324e1-c848-4872-bbd5-5be6baedf80e&pf_rd_r=9QFA8YAYA01GGM83G21N&psc=1&refRID=9QFA8YAYA01GGM83G21N

[KFC911]

Do you guys using a portable gen (if not connected to a house transfer switch providing it), ground them? I suspect the vast majority of folks don't. I've never used one...electricity scares the hell outta me tho'

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by KC911

Do you guys using a portable gen (if not connected to a house transfer switch providing it), ground them? I suspect the vast majority of folks don't. I've never used one...electricity scares the hell outta me tho'

Absolutely. I have a wire connected to my ground rod that is unrolled to my generator.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Absolutely. I have a wire connected to my ground rod that is unrolled to my generator.

I knew you would...but suspect many of the masses don't...especially campers, etc.

[hcoles]

Hi James,
I was thinking I want a TS that provides for switching e.g. 6 circuits from LINE to GEN.
The links above look like they switch one circuit.
Thanks.
Yes - the APC solution is a bit pricey - I think each circuit, of 6, can be loaded to 20 amps. For me 20 amps per circuit is fine.

[hcoles]

I found a Kohler 6 circuit manual transfer switch and it looks exactly like the Reliance. I suspect they are the same.

[red-beard]

The "6 circuit" is just the sub-panel attached to a transfer switch.

Most regular transfer switches are between the utility power and the main panel.

These smaller things are between a panel and an emergency sub-panel.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by Rapewta

Do we like it? No. Why? The design of an inexpensive generator is real noisy. It is not the exhaust system. It is in the design of the crankcase. When I run it, everyone within 10 miles can hear it.
If you live in a housing community like me, get a real expensive Honda. They are quiet.

That's very true. Having lived in FL after many hurricanes and in Calif during the third-world-utility power outages, I can confirm that most cheap powerful generators are loud as hell and aren't making you new friends... If you want to run it after hours, the hondas are fantastic.

My Honda 2000i is more limited in what it can run, but it still will run a fridge/freezer, TV, microwave and a few lights - quietly... Ok the microwave not so quietly, that thing is a power suck and takes it right out of eco-throttle in a hurry, but the rest, you can run as long as the gas will last (6-8 hours), without pissing off the neighborhood. That counts for something...

Is there a full house generator that will run (on what?) for a week on fuel that doesn't go bad, quietly ??? This might be the way to go!


Funny story re: last outages due to Kincade fire last week, my 2000i is just good enough for my house. My annoying neighbor had no generator and begged for a line to his freezer so we obliged (and therefore could not run 1/2 our stuff). Day 2 or 3 of the outage, I unplugged him for a few minutes so my wife could make herself warm coffee with MY generator. Neighbor sneaked into my backyard and replugged himself (and popped all our home devices with his freezer)... I was gonna have a serious chat with him that involved trespassing but next time I saw him he'd bought himself one of those loud generators and made sure to point out his was 3x more powerful (and loud!!!)... F#$ckwit. Last time I help him out.

I've looked at the price of the big ones, of solar, powerwalls, honestly $1000 for a quiet honda plus an electrician to setup a connection to a few chosen circuits sounds way cheaper... My power cords solution this time was not optimal... I'd love solar plus powerwalls but that also triggers a roof rebuild, and adds up to $40K in my case, vs $2000 for a quiet generator + an electrician / switch.

[dlockhart]

For affordable quiet generators, the harbor freight Predators have proven to do well at MC events running tire warmers all day, all weekend long and AC on toyhaulers all night.
They seem to be a good value. We used our Kipor Generators for several years as a affordable alternate to the Honda.

https://www.harborfreight.com/3500-watt-super-quiet-inverter-generator-63584.html

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

Is there a full house generator that will run (on what?) for a week on fuel that doesn't go bad, quietly ??? This might be the way to go!

Any whole house generator will be quieter than a portable. They all have a decent muffler and sound insulation under the cover.

They become significantly quieter when you get to the 2 cylinder air cooler engines (16kW to 22kW). They have a lot more sound insulation and a better muffler.

25kW and up you are water cooler. They are derated 4 cylinder car engines with full mufflers. The enclosures are heavily sound insulated. Quieter than an idling car, most of the time.

The ones I am specifically talking about are natural gas/propane. The Diesel units are generally a little bit louder. for the same size. You can always put the unit in the bushes, which helps with sound as well. Or surround it with a wooden fence.

As far as going a week. I expect you can go a week between shutdowns. The manuals say change the plugs and oil every 100 hours. I doubt most people do that. I do suggest with any of them to use a very good quality synthetic oil.

[Deschodt]

Thanks, that was very helpful!

[Rapewta]

If you end up with a portable generator, one inexpensive way to knock the noise down is go get some hay bails. They help. I have played many outdoor gigs in remote areas and the property owners would use portable gen sets surrounded by bails of hay and they actually really helped.

[CalPersFatCat]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Any whole house generator will be quieter than a portable. They all have a decent muffler and sound insulation under the cover.

They become significantly quieter when you get to the 2 cylinder air cooler engines (16kW to 22kW). They have a lot more sound insulation and a better muffler.

25kW and up you are water cooler. They are derated 4 cylinder car engines with full mufflers. The enclosures are heavily sound insulated. Quieter than an idling car, most of the time.

The ones I am specifically talking about are natural gas/propane. The Diesel units are generally a little bit louder. for the same size. You can always put the unit in the bushes, which helps with sound as well. Or surround it with a wooden fence.

As far as going a week. I expect you can go a week between shutdowns. The manuals say change the plugs and oil every 100 hours. I doubt most people do that. I do suggest with any of them to use a very good quality synthetic oil.

Generac just released a brand new 13kw with hydraulic lifters that, coupled with a 250 gal LP tank, will get you 100 hours of run time at 3/4 load. Thats 4 days and 4 hours straight.

I point out this new 13kw because it was specifically designed to handle the RLA of almost all modern central air compressors for average sized houses while significantly giving a longer run time on a given sized tank. If you have NG at your house, and entry cost is not an issue, then buy a 22kw.

People in hot humid areas buy whole home generators for two things. AC and the fridge. Everything else is a peripheral concern.

We are doing the 13kw, 16 circuit Automatic Transfer switch, 250 gallon tank and all electrical and plumbing, for $9,999 plus permits plus tax.

DL

[red-beard]

Fat-Cat, that sounds in the ballpark. City requires electrical and plumbing permits?

Getting the sub-panel wired by a good electrician costs money. I think that Generac ATS can limit loads for A/C startup.