"It was the triggers, hammer notches, and sears (depending upon which rifle - some, like the Rolling Block, don't have a sear in the modern sense). The basic actions really don't require the best steels or the best hardening - they are so vastly over-built due to being 19th century designs that relied on shear mass rather than good metallurgy, that when constructed of modern steels of any decent quality they hold up quite well."

Oh, no sweat then....all easily replaced but I'll watch them.

You are in the wrong 'country'.....

"practice schedule:
200, 300 yd practice, Wednesdays: 20,27-oct, 3,10,17,24-Nov, 8,15,22,29-Dec, 5,12,19,26-Jan, 2,9-Feb, 2,9,23,30-Mar, 6,13,20,27-Apr, 4-May
600, 800, 900, 1000 yd practice Thursdays: 21,28-oct, 4,11-Nov, 9,23,30-Dec, 6,27-Jan, 10-feb, 3,10,24,31-Mar, 7,14,21,28-Apr, 5-May.
contact Don Hanks

Numerous 1000 yard shoots.....

The 44/100 was the original Sharps LR cartridge.

The Irish team was using Rigby LR percussion rifles in .451 at the 74 Creedmore match.

I sold my Rigby LR to a Dutchman who shoots in LR matches in Europe using original rifles. He was going to shoot it at Wimbledon.

I have the Borchardt LR..

I had a J.P. Lower marked Borchardt action that went missing in Montana some 20 years ago. I couldn't make the trip, but a couple of buddies were going to the Rosebud for some prairie dog shooting, so I gave them the action to drop off with who was then the foremost gunsmith working on (and actually building brand new) Borchardts. We had made a few phone calls back and forth regarding what it needed, then after awhile, I never heard from him again. I went as far as to drive over to get it back. He was gone.

Borchardts are weird. It's impossible to get a really good trigger on one, due to some design problems. They are not legal in NRA silhouette, but they are legal in mid and long range matches. Dave Gullo (proprietor of Buffalo Arms) used to shoot one in some of our matches, and did quite well with it.

If you compare it to the '75 Sharps (of which only three prototypes were actually made), it's clearly an evolution of that design. The '75 still had a side hammer, the '78 Borchardt dispensed with that and went to a striker mounted in the breech block. Many say that is what killed it, and eventually, the Sharps company itself. Shooters were not ready for an unseen, internal striker. It made them nervous. That, and Sharps really needed to come up with a repeater, but that's another story.

Anyone that has a long distance rifle knows that it is pretty tough going downrange past 300 yards.
We have a 1000 yard range here and my limit with a 7mm Rem Mag is 300 yrds.
Plus, it is a long way walking out to pull your target and walk back.

A 1000 yrds is crazy. I know that military snipers don't have much of a problem but I couldn't even think of going out past 300.

I have a 200yd range on my farm...my son and a neighbor are good to that distance with specific rifles and ammunition. I am not. They will spend hours working at it slowly and methodically.

Great thread, Folks...part of the reason I still log on here are threads like these.

We had a dedicated group of Oregonians, and a few Canadiens, who shot Rigby and Whitworth muzzle loaders in our matches. Their huge disadvantage was in their need to break position to reload.

The 44-100 was a bottle necked case. Anyone who has ever played with bottle necked black powder cartridges will tell you what a PIA they are. I had a '74 Sharps in 44-77 for awhile, just because it was the ubiquitous early chambering. Couldn't get rid of it fast enough. They generate a lot of fouling right in the throat and the cases stretch, and sometimes separate, at a very discouraging rate. Might be o.k. as a hunting rifle that doesn't get shot much, but completely unsuitable as a match rifle. Sharps found that out as well and soon went to straight cases.

The only way to do it is to have someone in the target butts marking the targets, with a radio. I don't care what one has for a spotting scope, even .45 caliber holes are impossible to see at much more than 300 yards.

Military snipers have the same problems the rest of us have when shooting at those kinds of ranges. I've competed against enough of them (and quite frankly have never been beaten by one) to know that while they are very good, and exceptionally well trained, there is no special magic to what they do.

We do hear of hits at exceptionally long ranges from these guys. What we don't hear is that they were on station for some time, putting rounds down range, working with a spotter, and sorting out range, wind, and atmospheric conditions. These factors have such a great affect at long range that I don't care what one is shooting - scope or sight settings that were dead on at 1,000 yards this morning, can be so far off as to miss a house, much less a man, after lunch.

We work with a spotter to make constant adjustments as conditions change. Hell, I've moved sights up to 40 MOA from shot to shot in the same string as blustery winds shift back and forth. The often shown Hollywood sniper shot at extended range, where the guy shows up and makes one shot and connects, is pure Hollywood rubbish. It just doesn't work that way.

I shot my 1903A3 out to 8-900 yds, prone, sling, and was hitting the bull in wind and rain.
My bog standard Winchester 70 stealth in 308, and a leupold mark4 10x40 shot out to 1000 yards, no problems at all

with 7mm rem mag, 300 yds is zero range.
That's not even trying for a magnum caliber.

I shot 300 winmag to 1375 meters, in Norway, with wind, first shot was a hit
then i packed it up and called it a day, cause i sure as hell wasn't going to improve on that

I actually shoot worse below 300yds with scope, I really don't like short distances.
You get more aiming/optical errors then shooting errors at them short ranges.

Thanks everyone for the replies, learned a lot!

To see a lot about 1000 yard muzzle loader matches, fire up your Google and search on "World Championship Muzzle Loading Matches" and there is a ton of neat info, pictures and even some technical info on how-what-when-ETC of black powder long range shooting.
Here is the first site that showed up: https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/culture/2018-world-muzzle-loading-championships-pedersoli-scoops-up-medals/#

Which bullets were you using in the '06 and the .308?

I can't remember her name, but a young lady set the 1,000 yard record for a ten shot group that stood for many years, using the 7mm Remington Magnum. It was somewhere around a 10" group, so an honest MOA group at 1,000 yards.

A couple of guys from my club actually beat her record about ten years ago. One was the shooter, one was the spotter, of course. They used a custom rifle chambered in the 6.5-'06. I believe they drove the group size record down below 5" for ten shots. Just mind boggling, really. They travelled to the Original Pennsylvania 1,000 Yard Benchrest Club range to perform this feat. They spent weeks there waiting for just the right conditions, one of those dead calm mornings or evenings with flat light, before they went for the record.

The record has since been reduced to just about 1". For ten shots. At 1,000 yards. That's .10 MOA. Absolutely phenomenal at that range. I believe, however, that shooting like this falls into its own category of statistical anomaly. With enough guys shooting enough groups for long enough, it's bound to happen somewhere at some time. Certainly not a reproducible feat, by the same guy, on a different range, on another day. Sort of like the 300 yard hole in one.

A hit on what? How did you arrive at your elevation and windage corrections? And again, which bullet were you using?

Sorry, just the first thing that popped into my smart-assed mind when I read this...

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/h...thinkstock.jpg

:D

the 1903 shot Sierra 155 Palma heads
the Winchester 70 had a 26 inch barrel and shot 175 Sierra TMK's

I weighed all my cases, and heads and hand measured the loads, brass was sized with Redding S dies for neck tension control...my velocities were extremely consistent.

That was on Bisley, Stickle downrange
At 600 yds with my 1903 I was printing a close circle around the group made by an AI chambred 260 remington(pretty much a lazer).. he was schooting scope on bipod, I was shooting irons prone and sling..

Man sized Steel plate, don't know which bullet, it wasn't my gun.
Dude next to me gave me wind and elevation, he was a local, he knew the wind in them fjords... Absolute impossible to read the wind there , you just have to guess how the wind will flow over the various rock faces and what not.

But it was a clean hit

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1559063982.jpg

We also shot some 50 cal bolt, but quite frankly that thing wasn't pleasant to shoot with..
Even with a muzzle brake that thing kicked like a mule

Interesting. I would have transposed those bullets, using the heavier 175's in the larger '06 case. The 155 grain Palmas were actually designed specifically to remain supersonic from the .308 at 1,000 yards for use in, of all things - the Palma Matches. Even the vaunted 168 grain Match King fails to remain supersonic at 1,000 yards from the .308. I've seen (actually heard) many, many of them tumbling at that range when I was in the butts.

What powders and primers are you using?

Scopes really don't help when shooting under match conditions at well defined, visible targets. We often see iron sight shooters out-shooting scope sighted shooters. Scopes excel under hunting or other field conditions, where target visibility is less than ideal.


Wow - that looks like a real shooters' nightmare. I cannot imagine the swirling, boiling, gusting winds a place like that would have to offer. What a challenge...

155 grains for prone/sling is better on the shoulders if you shoot all day.
And out of the 1903 with good speeds they just worked for me.

And no , not a nightmare.. Sokndal is Shooters heaven :D
well used to , went out to 1850 meters, but range got cut short due to some kind of development way in the back..

edit forgot, Vihta Vuori N550, not cheap
and some what sensitive to ambient temp, add a grain in winter.

Federal primers.

Jeff, Great info! Have you ever thought about becoming an instructor?

It's just a hobby for me. One from which I derive a great deal of enjoyment and relaxation, and one that the geek in me finds endlessly fascinating. I'm afraid that making much more of a commitment to it might squeeze out some of the enjoyment for me. I started to find that happening at the height of my match shooting - it almost became a chore of sorts. I do enjoy sharing my knowledge and helping out other shooters, but to formalize that in any way just doesn't sound all that appealing to me.

word to that.

making ammo
the travel to matches
shooting
returning
cleaning guns

it's very consuming.

It's a game of variables really.
let's say it's 20 variables that can go from 0 to 100 % correct
Some will have a bigger impact then others

Going off on one variable might be compensated by another variable pushing the error in the other direction.

Ex 1 MOA aiming error to the left, compensated by 1MOA wind reading error to the right.

The goals is to get all the variables right, ALL the time.

aim
eyebox
breathing
positioning (sling/body)
wind
shooter focus
barometric
coreolis (if you go really far)
Barrel build
barrel cleaning
trigger work
shooting position
bullet shape
bullet weight
case volume
case weight
neck tension
powder charge
primer
seat depth

There's more, but you get the idea.
You can get lucky once
twice, but TR matches is usually around 60 shots in succesison..

All these guys that show you a 3 shot or 5 shot MOA group

It's a joke ... That does not cover the statistical variation of anything.
a 3 or 5 shot 1/2 MOA group is getting lucky for the most part.,
(they typically don't show you the 20 or so ****tie moa groups they layed down before and after their good group..)


My main problem was focus, If i over think it i start getting impatient and i screw up.
My best results where when I arrived late, they told me to hurry, and I said F it. and rapid fired my shots
Got silver for that one , 6 5 400 yds falling back, WW2 service rifle

+1

Throw black powder and all of the issues it introduces into the mix, along with casting and sorting bullets, and the time commitment goes up substantially. The requirement to clean cases (and not just tumble them), drop tubing every charge into the case (and we actually never weight them, it's all by volume), seating an over powder wad of some sort and compressing the powder (in an operation separate from seating the bullet). Then there is bullet clocking in the case - we file a notch in the case rim on the same place on each case relative to the headstamp, so we can see it to clock the case in the shell holder. This helps us clock the bullet in the case by using the mold seam and the direction of the drag mark when the sprue is cut. This makes a difference with cast bullets in match ammo.

So, yeah, lots of work just preparing ammo. I have a couple of grocery bags full of medals and a shelf full of trophies... all won in my basement, not on the range. The shooting was the easy part.

Next you are going to tell me that the silencers don't just make a quiet patutt sound so quiet someone in the next room can't hear it.

And that 90 pound women can punch a 6'6" 300 pound bodyguard so hard he flies backward. Or that shooting a guy in the stomach will send him flying backwards through the air and through a window!